Would Slim have done any better in Monty's positions?

[kvnrthr]

While Montgomery comes in for a lot of criticism, Slim tends to be praised a lot, but I wondered if Slim would necessarily do a lot better against the Germans.

For the sake of argument, let's temporarily ignore the feasibility of moving into these positions (Slim was quite junior and was considered part of the Indian Army with lower prestige, making such a command change unlikely) and just discuss the ramifications. So suppose Slim was put in Montgomery's roles, i.e. 8th Army commander in Africa and Sicily, then 21st Army Group in Europe. What do you think he would do better or worse?

Slim's claim to fame, from what I can understand, was his ability to get around supply problems and learn how to train his troops to fight in the jungle and off roads. But the latter won't really be useful in North Africa, and he never had to operate against large tank forces like the Germans had so that might be a new challenge. Perhaps he would be able to adapt better to mountain fighting in Italy if he sticks around for long. He might just have a better eye for deception than Monty considering his OTL offensives against the Japanese, but whether such things would translate well against the Germans is a bit unknown.

In terms of tactical approaches I'm not sure if he'd bring anything new to the table. Breaking through a Japanese bunker in Burma was a slow, messy process and I imagine they'll have similar troubles against the German fortified positions.

From what I can tell though, he always had a very positive reputation among colleagues unlike Monty. He managed to get along with Joseph Stilwell, and he was able to bind his multinational force together which might come very appreciated once he starts working with the Indian, Commonwealth, and Polish units under his command (though again, it must be said that he had a large background with Indian troops which would not be there with the Poles). And I think there will be much less friction between him and the other American commanders in Europe and Africa, which may tip the balance towards better cooperation.

 

[Thoresby]

It's an interesting question. Both Slim and Monty shared an emphasis on training and logistics but I think that just reflected wider British military thinking, as far back as Wellington the British Army has generally taken the attitude that the side with better logistics and better trained troops will win 9 times out of 10 and the rest of the details will take care of themselves. Which is fairly reasonable attitude imho. The need to play well with others and the important of coalition warfare goes back to Marlborough so in that sense Slim would be a much more "traditional" British commander. All in all I don't think Slim would see British troops entering Berlin but they would have reached the Luneburg Heath on schedule and with less bad blood if the roles had been reversed.

 

[Derwit]

I think you've answered your question. Slim was much better at playing with others. He still wanted his orders to be carried out but was much nicer about it. Like Monty he was a keen trainer as can be seen by the changes it doctrine o enable his forces to operate in the difficult conditions of Burma. Certainly Slim would get on a lot better with the Americans than Monty.

The changes in 8th Army doctrine largely attributed to the arrival of Monty where largely what the army was up to in Blighty at the time. Therefore any commander who had held a field role i the home army would be aware and would want to implement the same changes (although there's no guarantee another commander would be as successful as Monty was OTL). I could therefore see Slim doing a similar job at 2nd El Alamein. Slim might be willing to take more risks than Monty in the pursuit of Rommel but I suspect he would still be cautious. After this it's a coalition war which as stated above would better suit Slim than Monty.

Monty in Burma is harder to picture. Monty did well in the retreat to Dunkirk in 1940 so i feel he would manage OK when slowly bugging out of Burma. The problems with Burma being unprepared for defence will still mean that Monty won't stop running till he reaches India. He will not get on with Stilwel (expect that relationship to cause as much if not more fireworks that Monty v Patten! After that it's a long hard infantry slog to retake Burma which would suit Montys cautious approach.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Monty was one of the principle trainers of pre-war staff courses and understood/developed what we would call 'Doctrine' (there was nothing called Doctrine in the British army until recently which leads people to think that they didn't have any at the time) and could be considered a Subject matter expert on it

Also Monty in 1940 had proven his ability to wield a division and a corps very well while under great duress and knew many if not all of the senior staff officers in the British Army.

Slim was a very good officer and like Monty starts WW2 as the officer in charge of Senior officer training in India for the British Indian Army and beginning of 1941 sees him as a Brigade commander (10th Indian Army Brigade, 5th Indian Army Division).

So we have 2 disadvantages here - 1 he does not know or is known by the senior staff officers in the British Army and while he understands the Indian Army very well would not be as well versed as Monty with regards to the tribal ways of the British army.

He is injured in Sudan in Jan 41 and it is not until mid 41 that he gets his first Division command (10th Indian Army in Iraq, Syria, Lebanon and Persia)

Then in March 42 he is made a Corps commander (BurmaCorps - which was the remains of the 17th Indian Army Division, the Burma Division (militia in all but name) and the 7th Armoured Brigade with 2 battalions of Stuarts - and skilfully commanded the retreat from Rangoon).

So he is in the wrong army and is at least about 2 to 3 years behind Monty with regards to operational experience.

While I think he would have made a good show of it (replacing Monty) - he lacked the necessary experience and would not have had the British Army tribal links and understanding of the British army that Monty had

On the other hand - perfect choice for the goings on in Burma at the time - as he understand the Indian Army and did have the necessary 'tribal' links necessary.

 

[marathag]

He will not get on with Stilwel

Was there anyone who ever got along with him?

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Was there anyone who ever got along with him?

Quite

And Slim and Irwin had a major Bust up in late 42 during the Arakan campaign resulting in Slim being sidelined and later after it had all gone so very wrong they blamed each other but tellingly Irwin was 'recalled' with Slim replacing him.

 

[Rickshaw]

Slim was a British Army officer. He had come up the hard way from not quite the ranks but from Lieutenant. He had served in Mesopotamia in WWI and seen action there. He then transferred to the Indian Army. He developed a rapport with his men and learnt Hindi and Ghurkali. He served on the NW Frontier in some of the most difficult country against some of the most difficult tribesmen, who later went on to defeat first the Soviets and then later, took on the US and it's allies and are still fighting the Afghan Government. He served in Abyssinia and was wounded. After recovering, he went on to serve in Iraq and Iran. He was an able administrator and staff officer. He knew his men and never asked more of them that he thought they could give him. He trained them hard and they learnt the ways of Jungle Warfare. I don't think the Germans would be more difficult than the Japanese. He developed new means of aerial resupply and of "holding on" when the enemy attacked. Burma was turned from a defeat into a victory under him.

Monty OTOH, was a bugger. When he handed over CIGS to Slim he remarked that he had kept the army on it's toes and arguing with one another. Slim demurred and said that was not the way to run an army and brought everybody on board and while not making friends, make them at least all agree with him.

Tactically, Slim was a genius. He observed what the enemy was doing and made preparations to counter them. This was usually done on a shoestring and with obsolescent equipment. I don't think the Italians or the Germans would have put one over him.

 

[Captain Seafort]

So he is in the wrong army and is at least about 2 to 3 years behind Monty with regards to operational experience.

While I think he would have made a good show of it (replacing Monty) - he lacked the necessary experience and would not have had the British Army tribal links and understanding of the British army that Monty had

Being Indian Army wouldn't have been a hindrance for Slim any more than it was for the Auk.

Tactically, Slim was a genius. He observed what the enemy was doing and made preparations to counter them. This was usually done on a shoestring and with obsolescent equipment. I don't think the Italians or the Germans would have put one over him.

The Italians did put one over on him at Gallabat. The thing with Slim was that he learnt from his misakes, not just in terms of exact situations, but the mindset that had lead to that situation in the first place. If he'd gone up against Rommel he would probably have run straight into an 88 trap as so many others did, but it would only have happened once, and he would have got the measure of the Afrika Korps very quickly indeed.

 

[Shapur2]

There could be some interesting changes in how operations were conducted in NWE, as I could see Slim greenlighting the use of Kangaroo APCs by VIII Corps during Operation Goodwood as O'Connor had wanted. During the Rhineland battles I definitely see him authorizing Simonds' 'Wallstreet' plan to cross the Rhine at Arnhem, to draw German troops away from XXX Corps' advance on Goch instead of pressing ahead into the teeth of the German defences; I Also don't think he'd hold back Simpson's 9th Army during Operation Blockbuster like Monty did. If Slim were more conscious of logistical constraints than Monty was in early September, perhaps Antwerp is opened to Allied shipping sooner, or instead of a gamble to outflank the Siegfried line the aim of 'Market Garden' ITTL is to gain access to Rotterdam, and allows SHAEF to build up supplies and cut down it's supply lines much sooner for an offensive towards the Rhine?

Beyond those few operational changes, I doubt his approach would differ too greatly from Monty's 'Colossal Cracks,' given the danger of German counter-attacks and the need to husband British manpower. At the very least, he could avoid the drama with Eisenhower and Harry Crerar (GOC 1st Canadian Army) that Montgomery engaged in IOTL.

 

[Zheng He]

The problem with putting Slim someplace else is who does a better job than him were he was at OTL? Slim was a "sepoy general" and was derided by many of his peers for being that but it made him a perfect fit for the CBI?

 

[Aber]

And Slim and Irwin had a major Bust up in late 42 during the Arakan campaign

IIRC this is one place where Montgomery may have acted differently and taken charge on the spot, rather than stayed an adviser.

Tactically, Slim was a genius. ... This was usually done on a shoestring and with obsolescent equipment.

The key comparison is with the enemy's equipment, where for example Slim's tanks while obsolescent were much better than the Japanese.

 

[ivanotter]

The one area that springs to mind is Antwerp. Slim might have seen the importance and done the job much earlier.

That would be a total game changer

 

[Shapur2]

The one area that springs to mind is Antwerp. Slim might have seen the importance and done the job much earlier.

That would be a total game changer

Slim might even go a step further and try to cut off 15 Army's retreat before it could even reach the Leopold Canal; IIRC 15th Army was considering an attack on Dempsey's flank, and only elected to withdraw towards Breskens around Sept. 2nd-3rd. Gustav von Zangen stated in postwar interrogations that he was surprise no attempt was made to threaten his eastern flank, and 21st Army Group did have access to signals intercepts announcing the creation of "Fortress West-Scheldt.' If Slim's handling of the pursuit could trap even the bulk of von Zangen's forces south of the Leopold Canal, the butterflies for the opening of Antwerp and operations north of the Albert Canal (TTL's Market Garden) would be significant, to say nothing of the butterflies for US 1st and 9th Army's operations west of the Roer if there's no German 15th Army to assist 7th Army.

Of course such a change would depend on Slim handling the pursuit to and beyond the Seine differently than Monty, who treated 1st Canadian Army's operations along the Seine and on the Channel Coast almost as an after thought, compared to the pursuit by Dempsey's armoured divisions. Would @Cryhavoc101 @Rickshaw @Captain Seafort or anyone else be able to comment on Slim's handling of 14th Army during and after the Battle of Meiktila in 1945 as compared to Montgomery's handling of the pursuit between August 25th and September 5th, 1944?

 

[kvnrthr]

The problem with putting Slim someplace else is who does a better job than him were he was at OTL? Slim was a "sepoy general" and was derided by many of his peers for being that but it made him a perfect fit for the CBI?

With hindsight (IMO), Burma did end up a strategic dead end. IIRC after Rangoon nothing of note was accomplished by British army forces until the Japanese surrender. Even if Slim is replaced by someone unable to decisively win against the Japanese, I think it would have been fairly easy enough to find someone who would do just OK, without really affecting the wider war effort. The Japanese will still be defeated in the Philippines, Central Pacific and later on in Manchuria regardless of what 14th Army did (unless they suffer a really catastrophic defeat).