Would Prince Wilhelm Have Been Allowed to Wed Elisa Radziwill if He Hadn't Been Heir Presumptive?

Okay, so the Prince Wilhelm of the title is the future Emperor Wilhelm I of Germany. He was heir presumptive to the Prussian throne so long as his older brother, King Friedrich Wilhelm IV, remained without an heir.

William was the heir presumptive to the Prussian throne. His eldest brother, Prince Frederick William, was childless, and it was expected that William would eventually inherit the throne. Because of this, he was also expected to marry a princess within his rank and have children. Unfortunately, Elisa was not that princess. Although her mother was a Prussian princess by birth, she descended into her husband's rank as a mere Polish noble. Thus, Elisa was considered to be not royal enough to marry the heir to the Prussian throne.

However, Elisa and Wilhelm were strung along for five years in a vain hope that the marriage would be allowed, before Friedrich Wilhelm III ordered his son to give up the Polish girl.

If Friedrich Wilhelm were to have male issue, would this be enough to allow a Wilhelm-Elisa marriage? And if so, what would the repercussions of this be? Obviously, Wilhelm and Elisa's marriage would be morganatic, which means any children would be excluded from the Prussian succession, but what else?
 
Any takers?

I think Elisa died of tuberculosis (some more romantic sources say a broken heart) at the start of the 1830s, but if she and Wilhelm wed around 1822-1825 mark, I'm guessing there'd be issue. An interesting effect would be on Wilhelm's personality (IMO). OTL, he never allowed Auguste any say, but he was never in love with her the same way he was with Elisa. I could almost see he and Elisa being sort of second parents to the Crown Prince of Prussia (Friedrich Wilhelm IV's son) - especially if Elisa's health means they can't have any kids of their own, since I don't think we'd see a Prince Heinrich-Rosalie, Countess Hohenau sort of snubbing of the couple in Berlin.
 
I say yes if his brother had a son, but I have no idea on further repercussions. Well, Bismarck stays in favor longer
 
Also, you can wait for the thread to drop off page 3 before thinking no one is interested. I've had threads not on the first page that got replies.
 
I say yes if his brother had a son, but I have no idea on further repercussions. Well, Bismarck stays in favor longer

Wouldn't Bismarck not come to power (at least by his OTL route) here? He was in government, sure, but he only got to be as important as he did IIRC because he managed to make Wilhelm I's dream of an expanded army budget etc come true (although it's been a while since I've dabbled in Prussian history of the 19e century).
Also, you can wait for the thread to drop off page 3 before thinking no one is interested. I've had threads not on the first page that got replies.

Noted
 
Okay, so the Prince Wilhelm of the title is the future Emperor Wilhelm I of Germany. He was heir presumptive to the Prussian throne so long as his older brother, King Friedrich Wilhelm IV, remained without an heir.



However, Elisa and Wilhelm were strung along for five years in a vain hope that the marriage would be allowed, before Friedrich Wilhelm III ordered his son to give up the Polish girl.

If Friedrich Wilhelm were to have male issue, would this be enough to allow a Wilhelm-Elisa marriage? And if so, what would the repercussions of this be? Obviously, Wilhelm and Elisa's marriage would be morganatic, which means any children would be excluded from the Prussian succession, but what else?
I think who a wedding between Wilhelm and Elisa is likely to happen if his brother had a son and would be a full wedding not a morganatic one as her rank was the same of a mediatised princess because she was a Serene Higness and her ancestors were princes of the Holy Roman Empire (Sophie Chotek instead was a simple noblewoman and her title was that of Countess as her ancestors were only Counts of the Holy Roman Empire), so her eventual wedding to Wilhelm would be like that of Isabella of Croÿ and the Duke of Teschen. And I think who Franz Ferdinand would be able to marry fully Sophie if not for the fury of Archduchess Isabella and the scandal she mounted. Likewise Elisa’s biggest trouble was not her own rank (low for an heir of throne but still acceptable) but political opposition from her father’s enemies (specially the ones related to the house of Mecklenburg and the decesead Queen Louise) and others who thinked who the heir of Prussia must marry the daughter of a ruling house. In any case Elisa’s own rank made a morganatic wedding impossible, unlike Franz Ferdinand and Sophie
 
I think who a wedding between Wilhelm and Elisa is likely to happen if his brother had a son and would be a full wedding not a morganatic one as her rank was the same of a mediatised princess because she was a Serene Higness and her ancestors were princes of the Holy Roman Empire (Sophie Chotek instead was a simple noblewoman and her title was that of Countess as her ancestors were only Counts of the Holy Roman Empire), so her eventual wedding to Wilhelm would be like that of Isabella of Croÿ and the Duke of Teschen. And I think who Franz Ferdinand would be able to marry fully Sophie if not for the fury of Archduchess Isabella and the scandal she mounted. Likewise Elisa’s biggest trouble was not her own rank (low for an heir of throne but still acceptable) but political opposition from her father’s enemies (specially the ones related to the house of Mecklenburg and the decesead Queen Louise) and others who thinked who the heir of Prussia must marry the daughter of a ruling house. In any case Elisa’s own rank made a morganatic wedding impossible, unlike Franz Ferdinand and Sophie

Interesting. I never thought about it being non-morganatic.
Why were the relatives of Queen Luise against it? I mean, did they have an alternative candidate for Wilhelm to wed (should Elisa be removed from the picture)? Or was it just because they didn't like the set of the Radziwills' jib?
And agreed on Isabella of Croy. She had hoped for FF to marry one of her daughters, so it must've been quite humiliating (to her) when he married one of her ladies in waiting. Still, karma's a bitch and her nephew later married another girl that Isabella likewise kicked up a fuss over.
 
How about this for a mess:

Friedrich Wilhelm has a son, Heinrich.

Wilhelm marries Elisa, morganatically. They have a son Rupprecht.

Elisa dies.

Wilhelm marries again, to Margrethe, a lady of higher rank. They have a son Rudolf.

Heinrich succeeds to the throne.

Heinrich dies without a son, succeeded by Wilhelm.

Rupprecht, the morganatic son, is 40 years old, a soldier with a heroic record.

Rudolph, the eligible son, is 30 years old, a useless twit: a chinless, simpering weakling with an iQ of 85 and a taste for rogering chambermaids.

Will house law prevail? Or will it be set aside so the better man can succeed?
 
Wouldn't Bismarck not come to power (at least by his OTL route) here? He was in government, sure, but he only got to be as important as he did IIRC because he managed to make Wilhelm I's dream of an expanded army budget etc come true (although it's been a while since I've dabbled in Prussian history of the 19e century).

Well, Bismarck was in the government, then Wilhelm I ascended and considered him a "petulant naïve schoolboy." One annoyed Austrian visitor later (I think he was a count or something) and Bismarck is out of favor. Suddenly, he gets called back to clean up a mess (to long to explain) with the intention of throwing all the blame on Bismarck when he will inevitably fail. Then Bismarck fixes the mess and makes Willihiem's dream come true, and he's back in favor and now the favorite.

Frederick Wilhelm was the first to like Bismarck. If he lives, Bismarck stays in favor, although a twist of irony means the problem he fixed in OTL won't happen.
 
How about this for a mess:

Friedrich Wilhelm has a son, Heinrich.

Wilhelm marries Elisa, morganatically. They have a son Rupprecht.

Elisa dies.

Wilhelm marries again, to Margrethe, a lady of higher rank. They have a son Rudolf.

Heinrich succeeds to the throne.

Heinrich dies without a son, succeeded by Wilhelm.

Rupprecht, the morganatic son, is 40 years old, a soldier with a heroic record.

Rudolph, the eligible son, is 30 years old, a useless twit: a chinless, simpering weakling with an iQ of 85 and a taste for rogering chambermaids.

Will house law prevail? Or will it be set aside so the better man can succeed?

Considering it's the Hohenzollerns, and they allowed nitwits like Friedrich Wilhelm II (who Friedrich the Great despaired of, saying that it was the wrong nephew (FWII's brother) who died) and Friedrich Wilhelm IV onto the throne, I'm guessing that they'd cite that as precedent for Rudolf succeeding over Rupprecht (name's are a bit unlikely though, every Hohenzollern male at the time had the names (at least) Friedrich and Wilhelm). And as @isabella pointed out, a marriage to Elisa would probably be regarded as equal were it not for specific circumstances.
 
Interesting. I never thought about it being non-morganatic.
Why were the relatives of Queen Luise against it? I mean, did they have an alternative candidate for Wilhelm to wed (should Elisa be removed from the picture)? Or was it just because they didn't like the set of the Radziwills' jib?
And agreed on Isabella of Croy. She had hoped for FF to marry one of her daughters, so it must've been quite humiliating (to her) when he married one of her ladies in waiting. Still, karma's a bitch and her nephew later married another girl that Isabella likewise kicked up a fuss over.
They simply do not liked her family and looked down to Eliza’s father and said her mother had made truly a misalliance...
Well Isabella of Croÿ had taken the frequent visits of Franz Ferdinand to her house as sign of his interest in one of her eight daughters, likely the eldest and she was not the only one to think that so when the truth came out was not only a big delusion but also an humiliation for her
(and also for her daughter who practically resulted rejected, like Franz Joseph and Helene of Bavaria).

Wilhelm had two younger brothers and two cousins for continuing the line if he married morganatically but Elisa’s rank was too high for a morganatic wedding and too low for marrying the heir presuntive of Prussia.

How about this for a mess:

Friedrich Wilhelm has a son, Heinrich.

Wilhelm marries Elisa, morganatically. They have a son Rupprecht.

Elisa dies.

Wilhelm marries again, to Margrethe, a lady of higher rank. They have a son Rudolf.

Heinrich succeeds to the throne.

Heinrich dies without a son, succeeded by Wilhelm.

Rupprecht, the morganatic son, is 40 years old, a soldier with a heroic record.

Rudolph, the eligible son, is 30 years old, a useless twit: a chinless, simpering weakling with an iQ of 85 and a taste for rogering chambermaids.

Will house law prevail? Or will it be set aside so the better man can succeed?
Impossible to happen as a morganatic wedding to Elise is out of discussion as they will either marry equally or not at all...
In any case the morganatic son will never be able to inhereit (unless the wedding was later recognized as full and the kids as legitimate heirs) so the heir will be the younger legitimate brother.
(A later recognition of a morganatic wedding was possible in Germany and Franz Joseph forced Franz Ferdinand to promise who he would have never changed the status of his wedding to Sophie in exchange of the permission to marry her)
 
They simply do not liked her family and looked down to Eliza’s father and said her mother had made truly a misalliance...

Wilhelm had two younger brothers and two cousins for continuing the line if he married morganatically but Elisa’s rank was too high for a morganatic wedding and too low for marrying the heir presumptive of Prussia.

In any case the morganatic son will never be able to inhereit (unless the wedding was later recognized as full and the kids as legitimate heirs) so the heir will be the younger legitimate brother.
(A later recognition of a morganatic wedding was possible in Germany and Franz Joseph forced Franz Ferdinand to promise who he would have never changed the status of his wedding to Sophie in exchange of the permission to marry her)

@Anarch does make an interesting point though. If Friedrich Wilhelm IV and Elisabeth of Bavaria were to have only one son (either no other children or only girls), born before Wilhelm weds Elisa, and the son was to die young, once the wedding has gone through (not impossible, I mean Wilhelm's sister-in-law, Marianne of the Netherlands' lost a son young, and Wilhelm himself lost two grandsons (Prince Sigmund and Waldemar) at still later periods, as well as a nephew (Prince Frederik of the Netherlands' son) to seemingly random causes), i.e. that Prussia has a future Polish consort. Makes for interesting thought how Elisa could influence (if at all) Wilhelm (perhaps in ways Auguste never could OTL).
 
@Anarch does make an interesting point though. If Friedrich Wilhelm IV and Elisabeth of Bavaria were to have only one son (either no other children or only girls), born before Wilhelm weds Elisa, and the son was to die young, once the wedding has gone through (not impossible, I mean Wilhelm's sister-in-law, Marianne of the Netherlands' lost a son young, and Wilhelm himself lost two grandsons (Prince Sigmund and Waldemar) at still later periods, as well as a nephew (Prince Frederik of the Netherlands' son) to seemingly random causes), i.e. that Prussia has a future Polish consort. Makes for interesting thought how Elisa could influence (if at all) Wilhelm (perhaps in ways Auguste never could OTL).
Well this is a really interesting scenario but I have not the knowledge necessary for developing it... Surely that would be a nightmare for many in Prussia but I can not say more
 
Well this is a really interesting scenario but I have not the knowledge necessary for developing it... Surely that would be a nightmare for many in Prussia but I can not say more

No worries. It's just a thought bunny that was inspired by @Anarch's post. As I said above Wilhelm was a pretty strong-willed and stubborn man (or at least, he comes across as such), but he had an undying affection for his late mother - he kept a tea-service in some ghastly pattern that his mother had had. Empress Auguste hated the pattern and made use of her "shakes" to systematically decimate the service one item at a time. Once the tea-service was no longer there, Auguste wanted to order a new set, only to have Wilhelm present her with a new set he'd had made. In the same pattern as before. :p Even if the story is untrue (probably is), it shows that Wilhelm was sentimental (at least about some things), although he clearly didn't like change.

At the same time, however, it might have been the messenger,, rather than the message (as my mother always says). So, Elisa might be able to get him to go in directions (he loved her, I've heard that a man will walk barefoot to Thailand if a woman he loves asks him to - probably an exageration but you get what I'm going for) that Auguste couldn't OTL. Thus, even though the ideas might be the same, the results might not be.
 
No worries. It's just a thought bunny that was inspired by @Anarch's post. As I said above Wilhelm was a pretty strong-willed and stubborn man (or at least, he comes across as such), but he had an undying affection for his late mother - he kept a tea-service in some ghastly pattern that his mother had had. Empress Auguste hated the pattern and made use of her "shakes" to systematically decimate the service one item at a time. Once the tea-service was no longer there, Auguste wanted to order a new set, only to have Wilhelm present her with a new set he'd had made. In the same pattern as before. :p Even if the story is untrue (probably is), it shows that Wilhelm was sentimental (at least about some things), although he clearly didn't like change.

It was believed in his time, which says something.

Just like it was once believed that Empress Matilda personally led some battles alongside her Lieutenant Robert of Glouster and then people realized none of the Norman choniclers one either side mentioned it and eventually by the time Richard was heir apparent to Henry II, people traced the story back to Scottish chroniclers who were make up a bunch of stuff to keep things entertaining. But long before Joan d'arc, people believed a woman rode on a warhorse and acted as tactician says something even if they realized it wasn't actually true. That says something.

So the fact that people believed the story about his mother's tea set says something even if it wasn't true. He was more attached to his mother than Wilhelm II to his (I know they were at odds politically, but even considering that he didn't seem to attached…)
 
It was believed in his time, which says something.

So the fact that people believed the story about his mother's tea set says something even if it wasn't true. He was more attached to his mother than Wilhelm II to his (I know they were at odds politically, but even considering that he didn't seem to attached…)

I think Wilhelm II's own disability (which he blamed his mother for his entire life) as well as the rigors/treatments/standard that Vicky held him up to (in a way the Vicky-Willy relationship parallels Victoria-Bertie) played a role in the "estrangement". It was a kid who just wants to be loved by his parents, and Vicky does nothing but criticize (which TBF was probably how she interpreted parenting - especially given her own upbringing), so finally decides "to hell with it". IIRC Wilhelm II was closer to his grandfather (Wilhelm I) and grandmother (Victoria) than to either of his parents - in Wilhelm's case because he was a boy and Victoria's favouritism was because it was her first grandchild.

I'm curious as to how Wilhelm-Elisa's kids will affect things? If Friedrich Wilhelm IV only has one kid, they'll certainly play a role in things (basically the role that Prince Karl's son and daughters played OTL), even if their dad is not heir presumptive as he was OTL. How many kids do you think there'd be? Elisa's health doesn't seem to be the strongest - but neither was Auguste's (who was IIRC, something of a hypochondriac with weak lungs, which she used as an excuse for her sporadic sleeping with her husband), but I could imagine a fair few (Wilhelm's in love with Elisa like he wasn't with Auguste for one; for another, Elisa's (and Wilhelm's) parents both managed a fair few kids (10 for him, 6 for her)). @QueenMaud
 
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