Would Native American society have changed without European interference?

Unfortunately, the Americas lacked good domesticateable animals above the dog and llama. Without the larger beasts of burden to ride or pull wagons trade was small scale and based upon what could be carried. Thus, without widescale trade the spread of new ideas was slow.
Given a few more thousand years of domestication, mightn't we see breeds of llama better suited to niches that the llama of OTL were unsuitable for? Would a larger breed of llama be better suited for riding or pulling wagons and plows?
 
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Here's a question. If for some reason, the Europeans never came to North America, would Native American society have changed that much without European interference?

As we know, Native Americans from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego were literally Paleolithic people using technology comparable to what we've found in Stone Age Siberia. They lived the same lifestyle for tens of thousands of years, using the exact same tools found in said Siberian sites, meaning they were a fantastic time capsule and the only known example of people who never changed in tens of thousands of years in history--an incredible discovery! Although thanks to Europeans, some around what would become Clovis, New Mexico invented new Stone Age tools, but alas, it was too late for them. Maybe if they'd invented these so-called "Clovis points" and other sorts of those tools before Europeans showed up...

Sorry, just wanted to answer the OP better.

The Pacific Northwest tribes had a complex society. Huge,oceangoing canoes,potlucks,gigantic totem poles, even some like the Salish had a dog breed with woolly type fur for them to weave with. They were also the pirates of that area,raiding the California tribes and probably parts of Pacific Coast Mexico. They also readily adapted to new technology and used it to their advantage. True,they weren't agricultural,but I think they were traders as well as slavers.

Certainly true, but that's only the foundations of what could have been a much larger civilisation in terms of size and complexity.

Given a few more thousand years of domestication, mightn't we see breeds of llama better suited to niches that the llama of OTL were unsuitable for? Would a larger breed of llama be suitable for riding or pulling wagons and plows?

They could pull wagons and carts, assuming the people using them had the wheel. And I thought they did pull things like sledges.
 

Magical123

Banned
As we know, Native Americans from Alaska to Tierra del Fuego were literally Paleolithic people using technology comparable to what we've found in Stone Age Siberia. They lived the same lifestyle for tens of thousands of years, using the exact same tools found in said Siberian sites, meaning they were a fantastic time capsule and the only known example of people who never changed in tens of thousands of years in history--an incredible discovery! Although thanks to Europeans, some around what would become Clovis, New Mexico invented new Stone Age tools, but alas, it was too late for them. Maybe if they'd invented these so-called "Clovis points" and other sorts of those tools before Europeans showed up...

Sorry, just wanted to answer the OP better.



Certainly true, but that's only the foundations of what could have been a much larger civilisation in terms of size and complexity.



They could pull wagons and carts, assuming the people using them had the wheel. And I thought they did pull things like sledges.
Is your first paragraph sarcastic or is that what you believe?
 
@metalinvader665, I can't parse the first paragraph either. I hope you're not serious.

On topic, Native Americans would definitely have changed without European intervention. Although that's an interesting point re: all the cultures (Pueblo/Maya/Aztec/others) somehow not discovering the wheel. Was there a reason for it? (i.e. sledges/canoes working better in their environment?)
 
@metalinvader665, I can't parse the first paragraph either. I hope you're not serious.

On topic, Native Americans would definitely have changed without European intervention. Although that's an interesting point re: all the cultures (Pueblo/Maya/Aztec/others) somehow not discovering the wheel. Was there a reason for it? (i.e. sledges/canoes working better in their environment?)

I'd hoped anyone who knew about American Indian prehistory would detect that as sarcasm. I'm sorry my sarcasm was a bit too thick. But let's ignore that. Archaeology clearly proves Amerindians changed from the earliest human inhabitation in the Americas to when Europeans encountered them. It seems physically impossible for a culture not to change in that timeframe.

Yes, the fact the wheel seems to have been a mere toy in the Americas is an issue. But I can't see why canoes or sledges would've worked better in their environment than the wheel. Possibly the same reason why the Andeans only had quipu instead of proto-writing or writing like in Mesoamerica. One reason might be that the main centers of civilisation in the New World were in the mountains and rough terrain like jungles, unlike the more even terrain in the Middle East? I mean, Mesoamerica is very mountainous, the Andes are of course mountainous, and other regions like Yucatan are dense jungles. Compared to the Fertile Crescent, which was mostly flat and a grassland. Still not a reason someone at some point couldn't apply the principle of what they had to a greater innovation, which would spread. I suppose the (proto-)Puebloans are the ones to benefit, since their land is closest to the Fertile Crescent in terms of flatness. Just avoid the mountainous parts of New Mexico, and you're into the Plains. From there, spread to whatever culture is around the Mississippi River and its tributaries, like in 1492, the Mississippians and their Plains offshoots (mainly Caddoan peoples). It's very forested, but hopefully they'll chop down enough forests and improve the trails to use the wheel effectively.
 
Whig history with a touch of White Man's Burden. So now we know the answer to WI They Had the Internet in the 19th Century?
 

Magical123

Banned
Anyone want to do a shared RPG where we extrapolate Amerindian future trajectory from 1492 to 6000 AD without European interference?
 
The Pacific Northwest tribes had a complex society. Huge,oceangoing canoes,potlucks,gigantic totem poles, even some like the Salish had a dog breed with woolly type fur for them to weave with. They were also the pirates of that area,raiding the California tribes and probably parts of Pacific Coast Mexico. They also readily adapted to new technology and used it to their advantage. True,they weren't agricultural,but I think they were traders as well as slavers.
I´m sorry but "complex" relative to what? I mean I guess you could make the argument that OP is just overall ignorant of anythign that was going on there but one cant say they are complex just because they don´t fit the stereotype of perpetually hunther-gathering native. You should compare them to other societies.

I'd hoped anyone who knew about American Indian prehistory would detect that as sarcasm. I'm sorry my sarcasm was a bit too thick. But let's ignore that. Archaeology clearly proves Amerindians changed from the earliest human inhabitation in the Americas to when Europeans encountered them. It seems physically impossible for a culture not to change in that timeframe.

Yes, the fact the wheel seems to have been a mere toy in the Americas is an issue. But I can't see why canoes or sledges would've worked better in their environment than the wheel. Possibly the same reason why the Andeans only had quipu instead of proto-writing or writing like in Mesoamerica. One reason might be that the main centers of civilisation in the New World were in the mountains and rough terrain like jungles, unlike the more even terrain in the Middle East? I mean, Mesoamerica is very mountainous, the Andes are of course mountainous, and other regions like Yucatan are dense jungles. Compared to the Fertile Crescent, which was mostly flat and a grassland. Still not a reason someone at some point couldn't apply the principle of what they had to a greater innovation, which would spread. I suppose the (proto-)Puebloans are the ones to benefit, since their land is closest to the Fertile Crescent in terms of flatness. Just avoid the mountainous parts of New Mexico, and you're into the Plains. From there, spread to whatever culture is around the Mississippi River and its tributaries, like in 1492, the Mississippians and their Plains offshoots (mainly Caddoan peoples). It's very forested, but hopefully they'll chop down enough forests and improve the trails to use the wheel effectively.
the problem is how would they react to the little ice age? IMO that would hit the societies quite hard, probably slowing down expansion quite harshly, I think maybe having Colombia and Central American """civilize"""(as in form civilizations) you could unite Mesoamericans and Andes in a permanent trade and cultural exchange system. Akin to Egypt to Pakistan trade during the ancient middle-east, actually stronger than that given one end or actually both end got overruned by disaster or what not.

I think Mississippians are going to have a hard time compared to Colombia.
 
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the problem is how would they react to the little ice age? IMO that would hit the societies quite hard, probably slowing down expansion quite harshly, I think maybe having Colombia and Central American """civilize"""(as in form civilizations) you could unite Mesoamericans and Andes in a permanent trade and cultural exchange system. Akin to Egypt to Pakistan trade during the ancient middle-east, actually stronger than that given one end or actually both end got overruned by disaster or what not.

We know that the Manteño of Ecuador had developed a very nautical-facing, oceangoing culture, and may have had regular trade with Mexico. We don't know how long this was going on, or how intense and direct this trade was, but without European interference I think an ocean-based trade route rather than a land based trade route across the very difficult passageway of Colombia's mountains and Panama's Isthmus would be what binds the Mesoamerica and the Andean civilizations (these civilizations already influenced each other, this would just increase the influence).

I think Mississippians are going to have a hard time compared to Colombia.

I don't know if potatoes and llamas would make it north of the Rio Grande in 500 years, but once that does happen it's a game changer. Potatoes provide a lot of calories and nutrients for relatively little labor, and llama wool would end the need for northern peoples to maintain large hunting grounds in order to have winter clothes. Once that does happen, we would see the rise of densely populated, China-like civilizations in the Eastern Woodlands. For that matter, we could see that on the Atlantic coast of the southern cone as agriculture filters eastward from the Andes.
 
the problem is how would they react to the little ice age? IMO that would hit the societies quite hard, probably slowing down expansion quite harshly, I think maybe having Colombia and Central American """civilize"""(as in form civilizations) you could unite Mesoamericans and Andes in a permanent trade and cultural exchange system. Akin to Egypt to Pakistan trade during the ancient middle-east.

They reacted pretty hard, at least for the Mississippians and others in Eastern North America (north of Mexico). It seems like Mississippian influenced settlements (probably the ancestors of the Mandan, Hidatsa, and in general other Plains groups like the Pawnee) receeded from southern Alberta/Saskatchewan. It also might be behind the last phase of the megadroughts in the Southeast and Midwest which contributed to the destruction of the Mississippians. But I think without de Soto and the smallpox epidemics, the Mississippians would have recovered and rebuilt in an even stronger fashion. Imagine many of the Mississippian sites being as impressive as Cahokia. Cahokia could be equaled in many other places.

Climatically, those megadroughts (decades or centuries, far worse than droughts in the late 19th century which helped destroy the Plains Indians--as well as early American agriculture on the Plains--or the 1930s with the Dust Bowl) which do not seem to occur after the 16th century are the biggest impact on these civilisations. Although other issues, like how the Ancestral Puebloans salted their lands with their irrigation, is a reason. It seems like the first half of the 2nd millennium, after the 13th century or so, was a "dark age" north of the Valley of Mexico. What would've happened after is what we're basically talking about here--the 16th century brought smallpox and Spanish conquerers and prevented the region's "natural" (imagine an American Indian leader with the impact of Cortes--surely it couldn't be impossible!) evolution and response.

I don't know if potatoes and llamas would make it north of the Rio Grande in 500 years, but once that does happen it's a game changer. Potatoes provide a lot of calories and nutrients for relatively little labor, and llama wool would end the need for northern peoples to maintain large hunting grounds in order to have winter clothes. Once that does happen, we would see the rise of densely populated, China-like civilizations in the Eastern Woodlands. For that matter, we could see that on the Atlantic coast of the southern cone as agriculture filters eastward from the Andes.

I don't know how true this account is, but evidently the Spanish noted potatoes in Mexico (the non-Aztec parts as they conquered it), so it seems to have been known there in the 16th century.
 
Given a few more thousand years of domestication, mightn't we see breeds of llama better suited to niches that the llama of OTL were unsuitable for? Would a larger breed of llama be better suited for riding or pulling wagons and plows?

Probably, but the fact that llamas evolved as mountain animals, while horses evolved on the plains, means they will always be inferior as long distance transportation. Personally, I don't believe that some animals are "completely un domesticatable". even zebras, with enough time and selective breeding could become pets. But post-ice age mega-fauna die off really limits the possibilities in the Americas.

You'll like see llamas bred for fur, milk, meat and light pack use, but long scale travel would be very difficult.

You will see a proliferation of dog breeds with some very large breeds arising for pulling sledges, hunting, and war.
 
They reacted pretty hard, at least for the Mississippians and others in Eastern North America (north of Mexico). It seems like Mississippian influenced settlements (probably the ancestors of the Mandan, Hidatsa, and in general other Plains groups like the Pawnee) receeded from southern Alberta/Saskatchewan. It also might be behind the last phase of the megadroughts in the Southeast and Midwest which contributed to the destruction of the Mississippians. But I think without de Soto and the smallpox epidemics, the Mississippians would have recovered and rebuilt in an even stronger fashion. Imagine many of the Mississippian sites being as impressive as Cahokia. Cahokia could be equaled in many other places.

Climatically, those megadroughts (decades or centuries, far worse than droughts in the late 19th century which helped destroy the Plains Indians--as well as early American agriculture on the Plains--or the 1930s with the Dust Bowl) which do not seem to occur after the 16th century are the biggest impact on these civilisations. Although other issues, like how the Ancestral Puebloans salted their lands with their irrigation, is a reason. It seems like the first half of the 2nd millennium, after the 13th century or so, was a "dark age" north of the Valley of Mexico. What would've happened after is what we're basically talking about here--the 16th century brought smallpox and Spanish conquerers and prevented the region's "natural" (imagine an American Indian leader with the impact of Cortes--surely it couldn't be impossible!) evolution and response.
Cahokia I mean was impressive but... by North American standards only, if you factor Mesoamerica it already pales in comparison, add old world stuff and it kinda just because a grain of sand in a desert. In any case there were probably more settlements like Cahokia around, they just have now cities on top of them now given how logical it would be to have settlements mirror ancient ones. In any case I think this rebound could take up to 1800 AD. when I think the Ice Age is gone and farming becomes easier and more different crops become universally widespread.

I´m not sure if you could have a native Cortes, for example look at Alexander, his empire went only for the organized civilizations, not northern into the Balkans, I think you can have massive conquest only if you have the local structure to keep the areas conquered(reason why you couldn´t easily deal with nomadic people as a settled farming country or civilization)
 
Cahokia I mean was impressive but... by North American standards only, if you factor Mesoamerica it already pales in comparison, add old world stuff and it kinda just because a grain of sand in a desert. In any case there were probably more settlements like Cahokia around, they just have now cities on top of them now given how logical it would be to have settlements mirror ancient ones. In any case I think this rebound could take up to 1800 AD. when I think the Ice Age is gone and farming becomes easier and more different crops become universally widespread.

I´m not sure if you could have a native Cortes, for example look at Alexander, his empire went only for the organized civilizations, not northern into the Balkans, I think you can have massive conquest only if you have the local structure to keep the areas conquered(reason why you couldn´t easily deal with nomadic people as a settled farming country or civilization)

But we don't know those sites. St. Louis was built on one of what seems to be Cahokia's tributaries, it was not as impressive as what as at Cahokia, nor were East St. Louis's mounds which lasted slightly longer and had the same origin (which interesting were inhabited slighly longer). If there ever was a settlement as impressive as Cahokia north of Mesoamerica, it would've been recorded by Europeans as it would've been bulldozed (unless other American Indians would've destroyed it, which seems unlikely since they seemed to have leaved the mound sites alone). Many Mississippian etc. sites have been built upon (since they're good land), but Europeans tend to have recorded the mounds, or otherwise have ignored them and built their towns elsewhere.

The point is, Cahokia is the greatest site north of Mexico, and a hint at what the Mississippians as a cultural whole could accomplish. Oftentimes you see "Aztecs, Maya, Inca" for three major American Indian cultures--the Mississippians might as well be the fourth, and population density-wise, seem to have been developing on that level. As I said, imagine Cahokia in every decent-sized city in that cultural network which spanned the Southeast and Midwest, and into the Great Plains. That's cultural evolution, like how the Mesoamericans/Andeans had to develop up to the level of the major temples, city sites, etc.

What different crops? From what I understand, you'd need a full Andean-Mesoamerican exchange to get quinoa, etc. in North America. Unfortunately for the North Americans, they mostly abandoned their native crops. Unless you have European crops, of course, which add another dimension but carry that whole destructive element with them.

By a Cortes and Alexander, I mean an individual with the capability to change the course of history. Which suddenly it isn't just once city in the Mississippian region, it's multiple cities under the "rule" of one person, and by that I mean like we consider the Aztec Triple Alliance an empire, the Inca an empire, etc. Maybe it's more like Sargon of Akkad in Mesopotamia. But either way, it's someone making an empire. It's potential development of the Mississippian region. All these sites seem to have had a similar culture (though different languages), so it doesn't seem too far different than the situation in Mesopotamia in that regards.

Probably, but the fact that llamas evolved as mountain animals, while horses evolved on the plains, means they will always be inferior as long distance transportation. Personally, I don't believe that some animals are "completely un domesticatable". even zebras, with enough time and selective breeding could become pets. But post-ice age mega-fauna die off really limits the possibilities in the Americas.

You'll like see llamas bred for fur, milk, meat and light pack use, but long scale travel would be very difficult.

You will see a proliferation of dog breeds with some very large breeds arising for pulling sledges, hunting, and war.

If dogs aren't suitable for clearing out rats, then bobcats might do the job. There's some intriguing burials of bobcats with people at some Mississippian (I believe) sites. In theory, a domesticated bobcat could be trained like an attack cat to threaten intruders, as well as the purpose of hunting rodents.

But yes, dogs are the obvious choice. The Salish wool dog is very interesting and a hint at what they could do. But I'd question why there weren't more dog breeds developed OTL for those purposes.

The best domestic animal might be the reindeer, going by Siberian examples. The woodland caribou is native throughout Canada and into the northern United States. Could be a good pack animal. There's also the moose, which according to Soviet efforts, is in theory domesticatible. Since both would be domesticated at a late date, and neither seem to be suitable for the same uses the horse was for the Plains Indians, there truly is no horse substitute in the Americas. Not that the caribou or moose won't dramatically change things for where they're at.
 
the Native-Americans lived a primitive hunter-gatherer society

There's some guys outside calling themselves Mayans. They don't look happy and would like a word. There are a couple of others in line behind them too.

in which they worshipped the Great Spirit and used the land,

Also, some guy named Kukulkan.

Or to put it another way, do you know anything about Native American societies (yes plural)?
 

Magical123

Banned
The OP obviously has only a America centric very dated view of Indians, don't be too hard on him unfortunately most of the US population is less understanding.

If horses had survived and been domesticated I think you might have reached European levels of development maaybe by 4500 or 5000 AD. As it was in 1492 however at least to 6000 AD.

If you put the Indians in a virgin earth or simulation or had Mack the ASB magically freeze all non-western hemisphere cultures for 5000 years straight then you might have the Indians be equal to the Europeans.
 
Do you think the Inca could have developed a society analogous to Communism? They seemed to be on their way to it by the time the Inca Empire came around. There was central planning in agriculture and goods distribution, the Inca State distributed clothes and everyday items appropriate to the social standing of each person and expected people to wear these clothes until they could be worn no longer. Society was organized into a strict hierarchy in which tradition, religion and moral codes intertwined to form a worldview in which everyone had a pre-determinted role and place.

I wonder if they would have taken the path towards a kind of biotechnology, discovering Mendelian Genetics while breeding crops and eventually breeding different kinds of humans for different tasks.
 

Magical123

Banned
Do you think the Inca could have developed a society analogous to Communism? They seemed to be on their way to it by the time the Inca Empire came around. There was central planning in agriculture and goods distribution, the Inca State distributed clothes and everyday items appropriate to the social standing of each person and expected people to wear these clothes until they could be worn no longer. Society was organized into a strict hierarchy in which tradition, religion and moral codes intertwined to form a worldview in which everyone had a pre-determinted role and place.

I wonder if they would have taken the path towards a kind of biotechnology, discovering Mendelian Genetics while breeding crops and eventually breeding different kinds of humans for different tasks.
I have heard about Inca socialism yes and no I don't think they'd ever reach Brave New World levels of planning.

Eventually the Inca would have overstretched themselves and would have been conquered. Or collapsed. They may have reached southern Panama and may have even reached the pampas and maaybe may have gotten as far as Tieera Del Fuego but they weren't going to last to 5800 AD.
 
We all know the damage that the Europeans did to the Native Americans. They invaded their land, killed their animals (the buffalo), their children were taken from them, etc.

But before the Europeans arrived, the Native-Americans lived a primitive hunter-gatherer society in which they worshipped the Great Spirit and used the land, but didn't 'own' it in the European sense.

Here's a question. If for some reason, the Europeans never came to North America, would Native American society have changed that much without European interference?

As pointed out pretty much everywhere in this thread, American Indians were far from the homogeneous noble savages that you're sort of painting them as. Yes, they didn't use metal tools and had no significant beast of burden outside of the Llama in South America, but to suggest that they simply existed and never adapted their environment is just absurd. Besides the obvious examples of Mesoamerica (Aztecs, Zapotecs, and Maya, oh my) and Peru (which had several states that developed before the Inca were ever even born), the American/Mexican Southwest was home to the Pueblos and Anasazi who built and lived in cities of not insignificant size.

I think Cahokia/the Mississippians were brought up early in the thread, and I think that is one of the best counter-arguments against the premise that native societies were static in any way. Cahokia rose and fell, which is far from just not existing, or being just another village.

Also the Iroquios/Haudenosaunee league was far from just a bunch of hunter-gatherers.

But to answer your question, yes, Native societies would have changed sans-Europe.

Going with that what if, I'd predict that the Inca would develop a national identity similar to the IRL Han Chinese identity, though through different means. Before the Spanish Conquest, the Inca maintained their vast empire through central planning and work-groups, which were frequently moved around the empire where needed. The populace was supplied with goods from state-owned warehouses. Both of these, I think, would help the various cultures of the Andes start to coalesce into one Inca culture, albeit with variations region to region.

Central Mexico is harder to predict, but the Aztecs were on the decline, so perhaps some rival city-state would take over as top-dog in the region, similar to what happened in Ancient Greece during the Peloponnesian War.

North America would probably be home to large confederations of tribes, similar to the Iroquios.
 
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