Would Nationalist China be targeted in a nuclear war in the early Cold War?

Answering the OP here, personally I think the Nationalists might be hit by some nukes, especially if the majority of post-civil war reconstructioning is funded by the U.S. if that is so then the ROC will be a very firm ally of the U.S.A., and Chiang never liked Communism, in fact he hated it with a passion. The aid given by the Soviets were accepted since at the time the situation is dire, with a solid popular support (as the case will most likely be in the event of ROC victory) it will most likely cool down very quickly. As long as Chiang (and the KMT in general) is in charge China won't become a "Soviet Ally" nor an "India equivalent". In the event of the Cold War going hot though China might be hit to demonstrate that the Sovites are keeping an eye on them but nowhere near enough to cripple. There won't be sufficient forces to attack, and there will be no reason to, considering its all mountains and ridiculously hard to attack and easy to defend. It will still tie down a good chunk of Soviet forces though, and that will count for something at least.

I also find the claims of "ROC incompetent lazy corrupt warlords" stereotype to be much exaggerated and oftentimes annoying, especially coming from those who clearly don't know what they are talking about. The ROC's "examples" of "incompetentness" almost always originates from either communist propaganda or when the majority of the ROC supporters and the party itself has been decimated by the Japanese and the peasantry has been enticed by Communist promises of food, homes, and peace-when that is what the ROC had tried to do, but were only interrupted again and again by war, and the PRC simply took up the mantle of what the Nationalists left behind and gave it their own twist to it. It almost seems some people here genuinely believe that OTL under Mao will be better for China than an ATL under Chiang.....:rolleyes:

I don't want to start an argument, but I have to defend the ROC here from wrongful accusations from people with less than ideal information.
 

RousseauX

Donor
Answering the OP here, personally I think the Nationalists might be hit by some nukes, especially if the majority of post-civil war reconstructioning is funded by the U.S. if that is so then the ROC will be a very firm ally of the U.S.A., and Chiang never liked Communism, in fact he hated it with a passion. The aid given by the Soviets were accepted since at the time the situation is dire, with a solid popular support (as the case will most likely be in the event of ROC victory) it will most likely cool down very quickly. As long as Chiang (and the KMT in general) is in charge China won't become a "Soviet Ally" nor an "India equivalent". In the event of the Cold War going hot though China might be hit to demonstrate that the Sovites are keeping an eye on them but nowhere near enough to cripple. There won't be sufficient forces to attack, and there will be no reason to, considering its all mountains and ridiculously hard to attack and easy to defend. It will still tie down a good chunk of Soviet forces though, and that will count for something at least.

There's no particular reason the RoC and the USSR won't be on friendly terms. There is no particular reason that once the CCP is destroyed a KMT China will be a firm US ally either. Even during the war the KMT and the US were not happy allies and once the war is over and there is no longer the possibility of a Communist takeover there isn't a real reason for a China-US alliance. In OTL before the Korean war the US outright declared that it won't defend Taiwan if the Communists invade it.

In fact without Mao's personal grudge against Khrushchev and ideological revisionism spats, a KMT China is likely to be far better than terms with the USSR than the PRC was.

I also find the claims of "ROC incompetent lazy corrupt warlords" stereotype to be much exaggerated and oftentimes annoying, especially coming from those who clearly don't know what they are talking about. The ROC's "examples" of "incompetentness" almost always originates from either communist propaganda
No it mostly came from American advisers such as Stillwall who worked with Chiang actually

or when the majority of the ROC supporters and the party itself has been decimated by the Japanese and the peasantry has been enticed by Communist promises of food, homes, and peace-when that is what the ROC had tried to do, but were only interrupted again and again by war, and the PRC simply took up the mantle of what the Nationalists left behind and gave it their own twist to it.
The Nationalists were corrupt and incompetent, the reason why the peasantry bought the CCP promises is largely because the Nationalists promised the same stuff but didn't deliver

It almost seems some people here genuinely believe that OTL under Mao will be better for China than an ATL under Chiang.....
The Communists while pretty terrible from 1959-1976 were also genuinely one of the world's best governments from 1979 up until maybe 2011 or so.
 
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There's no particular reason the RoC and the USSR won't be on friendly terms. There is no particular reason that once the CCP is destroyed a KMT China will be a firm US ally either. Even during the war the KMT and the US were not happy allies and once the war is over and there is no longer the possibility of a Communist takeover there isn't a real reason for a China-US alliance. In OTL before the Korean war the US outright declared that it won't defend Taiwan if the Communists invade it.

In fact without Mao's personal grudge against Khrushchev and ideological revisionism spats, a KMT China is likely to be far better than terms with the USSR than the PRC was.

No it mostly came from American advisers such as Stillwall who worked with Chiang actually

The Nationalists were corrupt and incompetent, the reason why the peasantry bought the CCP promises is largely because the Nationalists promised the same stuff but didn't deliver

The Communists while pretty terrible from 1959-1976 were also genuinely one of the world's best governments from 1979 up until maybe 2011 or so.


Even if U.S.-ROC relations are as cold as you predict why will that make Chiang buddies with the Soviets? Like I said he loathed the ideology of Communism and even focused (not without reason, considering what they did later) on the CCP when the Japanese were rampaging.... Acceptance of gifts and advisors from the Soviet Union during a life-or-death struggle war? Yes. Being outright allies with a country where the very ideology you personally hated originated against an ally that defeated your mortal enemy and brought aid and stability to your country?! What?

Also during the war it is almost precisely people like Stilwell that the KMT-US alliance was not as smooth as it could've been, there were far too many clashes between the Generalissimo and Stilwell, and you can hardly expect a fair, unbiased view of the Nationalists from someone who called Chiang "Peanut", morphing the original code word into an insult.

Hmm.... I explain how the modernization attempts were blocked and halted by wars and communist insurrections themselves, and you respond with "they're incompetent and corrupt". Look at the Nanjing Decade and think again. The majority of the ROC's problems are in fact the communists themselves.


From 1979-2011 "maybe"? So, the same goverment that perpetrated the Tianmen Massacre? That censors media, newspapers, blocks Facebook, has only one political party to vote for in a de facto dictatorship without regard for individual human rights? One of the world's best governments?
If you can even call it one.
Yeah sure.:rolleyes:
 
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RousseauX

Donor
Even if U.S.-ROC relations are as cold as you predict why will that make Chiang buddies with the Soviets? Like I said he loathed the ideology of Communism and even focused (not without reason, considering what they did later) on the CCP when the Japanese were rampaging.... Acceptance of gifts and advisors from the Soviet Union during a life-or-death struggle war? Yes. Being outright allies with a country where the very ideology you personally hated originated against an ally that defeated your mortal enemy and brought aid and stability to your country?! What?
Because a whole bunch of Soviet client states and allies during the cold war were hostile to Communism and Communist parties. Examples of them include Egypt and Iraq both of which ruthless purged their countries of Communism and yet allied with the Soviets for decades. Cold war era post-colonial regimes were often remarkably pragmatic in their geopolitical positions and understands that allying with the Soviet Union as a state is not the same as allying with Communism as an ideology.
Also during the war it is almost precisely people like Stilwell that the KMT-US alliance was not as smooth as it could've been, there were far too many clashes between the Generalissimo and Stilwell, and you can hardly expect a fair, unbiased view of the Nationalists from someone who called Chiang "Peanut", morphing the original code word into an insult.
Or alternatively, Chiang et el's corruption and selling American weapons/supplies on the black market gave reason as to why the relationship was so hostile in the first place

Hmm.... I explain how the modernization attempts were blocked and halted by wars and communist insurrections themselves, and you respond with "they're incompetent and corrupt". Look at the Nanjing Decade and think again. The majority of the ROC's problems are in fact the communists themselves.
The Communist insurgency was non-existent outside of several remote areas during Nanjing decade. At the same time, the KMT was very corrupt even during that era. A corrupt regime is not necessarily an impediment to economic success but people do get pissed when the fruits of modernization is not evenly divided.

From 1979-2011 "maybe"? So, the same goverment that perpetrated the Tianmen Massacre? That censors media, newspapers, blocks Facebook, has only one political party to vote for in a de facto dictatorship without regard for individual human rights? Yeah sure.:rolleyes:

Shanghai 1994 vs 2014

3qm1PBS.jpg


Yes, the vast economic prosperity brought to China in the last 3 decades, the lifting of a billion people from absolute poverty, easily outweighs the few thousands murdered in Bejing and the blocking of facebook. While liberal democratic rights are important they are "full-belly rights". You can't care about facebook being blocked if you can't afford a computer.

The same is true of right wing regimes like Park Chung Hee's South Korea.
 
Because a whole bunch of Soviet client states and allies during the cold war were hostile to Communism and Communist parties. Examples of them include Egypt and Iraq both of which ruthless purged their countries of Communism and yet allied with the Soviets for decades. Cold war era post-colonial regimes were often remarkably pragmatic in their geopolitical positions and understands that allying with the Soviet Union as a state is not the same as allying with Communism as an ideology.

Or alternatively, Chiang et el's corruption and selling American weapons/supplies on the black market gave reason as to why the relationship was so hostile in the first place

The Communist insurgency was non-existent outside of several remote areas during Nanjing decade. At the same time, the KMT was very corrupt even during that era. A corrupt regime is not necessarily an impediment to economic success but people do get pissed when the fruits of modernization is not evenly divided.



Shanghai 1994 vs 2014

3qm1PBS.jpg


Yes, the vast economic prosperity brought to China in the last 3 decades, the lifting of a billion people from absolute poverty, easily outweighs the few thousands murdered in Bejing and the blocking of facebook. While liberal democratic rights are important they are "full-belly rights". You can't care about facebook being blocked if you can't afford a computer.

The same is true of right wing regimes like Park Chung Hee's South Korea.

As I am about to go to sleep I will only have a few at-a-glance responses:

Yet at this time the US is also looking for allies against the Red menace, and the Korean War was also fought in part to prevent communism from spreading even further into Asia, with China still standing you can be sure that America will court her as an ally, and personally based on Chiang's behaviour and decisions OTL he will chose to ally with the Americans, not the soviets.

The selling of American weapons is actually by the warlords that Chiang were forced to recruit by the fact that the elite of the Nationalist army was wiped out in the vain hope of foreign recognition. The actual military clique has very little corruption but the unequal system of peasantry vs officials were carry overs from the Qing era that were in the process of being reformed and / or destroyed when war screwed that plan over. Again, the ROC itself may be corrupt at times, but not the military elites, give them more time and the rotten wood will be cut from the system once and for all, many of the incompetent accusations are actually aimed at the obsolete Imperial Qing goverment system.

Although the communist insurgency was insignificant, the fact that they were not crushed and annihilated will come back to haunt the ROC, my comment referred to how the majority of accusations of incompetence and corruption are actually caused by the communist themselves by standing by and having the Nationalists take the burnt of the fighting, weakening themselves and then spreading tension and discontent when the Japanese were beaten.

Economic prosperity to who? The few privileged enough. Granted living standard are undoubtedly higher for everyone, but there is certainly wealth differences and "classes", which are all signs of capitalism, no? The fact China suddenly became so powerful is because that they started to adopt capitalism and "democracy", albeit a very right winged one. Which is what the ROC was! So in a way China became as powerful as it did today by adopting to what the ROC would have adopted had they won.

And another point-EVERY GOVERNMENT IS CORRUPT IN ONE WAY SHAPE OR FORM. Are the CCP corrupt? Absolutely. Are the US corrupt and have scandals of their own? Definitely. Why does everyone focus on the ROC?:confused:
 
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