Would killing Bin Laden have prevented September 11

AQ was created by the U.S> as a network to faccilitate the ouster of the Soviets, Bin Laden was the same. the peaceful engagement and reconstruction on of Afghanistan would not only be the right thing to do, it would also deprive them of their unassailable tortuga.

eh, I don't think AQ itself was created by the USA, it was financed mainly by OBL himself IIRC. Lifting Afghanistan out of poverty would be a nice goal, but it wouldn't sidetrack OBL from his anger about having US troops in Saudi Arabia (close to Mecca and all that) and the USA's support of Israel. Afghanistan was just a place AQ chose to set up shop... if they couldn't stay there, they'd go somewhere else... probably Pakistan.
 
eh, I don't think AQ itself was created by the USA, it was financed mainly by OBL himself IIRC. Lifting Afghanistan out of poverty would be a nice goal, but it wouldn't sidetrack OBL from his anger about having US troops in Saudi Arabia (close to Mecca and all that) and the USA's support of Israel. Afghanistan was just a place AQ chose to set up shop... if they couldn't stay there, they'd go somewhere else... probably Pakistan.
It doesn't matter what OBL thinks, only that we remove the lion's share of his potential pool of volunteers. that is done via engagement of the arab world, not by isolationism.
 
It doesn't matter what OBL thinks, only that we remove the lion's share of his potential pool of volunteers. that is done via engagement of the arab world, not by isolationism.

the pool of his volunteers is from the Arab world, not Afghanistan... remember where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from. And 'engagement of the arab world' would have to involve getting our troops out of SA and ending support of Israel. Limiting our contacts to diplomatic and economic ones would do the trick, but most of all it would have to be to stop taking sides in the Arab/Israeli conflict...
 
the pool of his volunteers is from the Arab world, not Afghanistan... remember where most of the 9/11 hijackers came from. And 'engagement of the arab world' would have to involve getting our troops out of SA and ending support of Israel. Limiting our contacts to diplomatic and economic ones would do the trick, but most of all it would have to be to stop taking sides in the Arab/Israeli conflict...

Nope, still soundslike Pseudo isolationism to me, pal and AMerica REALLY needs to stop doing that, it never ends well for us.
 
Nope, still soundslike Pseudo isolationism to me, pal and AMerica REALLY needs to stop doing that, it never ends well for us.

fair enough because I am a bit of an isolationist; not a full bore 'no contacts of any kind with anyone' radical one, more of a 'don't take sides in issues that don't involve us'. My main point of all this is that the USA can't sidetrack AQ simply by working with Afghanistan to lift them out of poverty... it'll take a major reworking of our stance in the Middle East, and ending our support of Israel and pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia. These are the issues that really drove AQ and attracted zealots to their cause...
 
fair enough because I am a bit of an isolationist; not a full bore 'no contacts of any kind with anyone' radical one, more of a 'don't take sides in issues that don't involve us'. My main point of all this is that the USA can't sidetrack AQ simply by working with Afghanistan to lift them out of poverty... it'll take a major reworking of our stance in the Middle East, and ending our support of Israel and pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia. These are the issues that really drove AQ and attracted zealots to their cause...

On this issue I agree to dissagree with you.
 
Is it fair to call the U.S. the best of a generally bad lot?

My point is exactly the oposite. In the world of cynical imperialism it was the Americans who first understood the value of making loyal allies and friends and to get something you also need to give something. British were second best, while the rest had pretty much deplorable practices.

USA may have forgotten this in recent years and it may have come to bite them back, but look at the entire world and countries in American sphere of influence during the Cold War and those that were not. Most are success stories such as Taiwan, Korea, Japan, West Germany, Kuwait, Jordan and many others. Contrast this with say Eastern Europe in Soviet sphere.
 
fair enough because I am a bit of an isolationist; not a full bore 'no contacts of any kind with anyone' radical one, more of a 'don't take sides in issues that don't involve us'. My main point of all this is that the USA can't sidetrack AQ simply by working with Afghanistan to lift them out of poverty... it'll take a major reworking of our stance in the Middle East, and ending our support of Israel and pulling troops out of Saudi Arabia. These are the issues that really drove AQ and attracted zealots to their cause...

I agree on your general view - Afghanistan was just a convenient battleground, but the critical issue driving anti-American feeling in the Arab world was (and to a large degree still is) the US relationship with Israel, with US troops presence in Saudi Arabia adding insult to injury.
 
I agree on your general view - Afghanistan was just a convenient battleground, but the critical issue driving anti-American feeling in the Arab world was (and to a large degree still is) the US relationship with Israel, with US troops presence in Saudi Arabia adding insult to injury.

The problem there is that U.S. Troops are in Saudi at the direct request of the Saudi leadership. THEY might have something to say about us pulling out.

That and if the kind of people who make there points by blowing up civilians as a specific matter of policy want us to do something, that is enough to make me NOT want to do it.
 
The problem there is that U.S. Troops are in Saudi at the direct request of the Saudi leadership. THEY might have something to say about us pulling out.

That and if the kind of people who make there points by blowing up civilians as a specific matter of policy want us to do something, that is enough to make me NOT want to do it.

Oh, I'm not arguing that, simply saying that I don't think you can simply put together a Marshall-type plan for Afghanistan, and expect everything to work out fine, because it won't.

The kind of things I mentioned (different relationship with Israel, no US troops in Saudi Arabia) requires a much earlier POD, probably around the mid-twentieth century. But then we're talking about a much different world.
 
Oh, I'm not arguing that, simply saying that I don't think you can simply put together a Marshall-type plan for Afghanistan, and expect everything to work out fine, because it won't.

The kind of things I mentioned (different relationship with Israel, no US troops in Saudi Arabia) requires a much earlier POD, probably around the mid-twentieth century. But then we're talking about a much different world.

I still don't think it would be as neat and tidy as you think it would.
 
I still don't think it would be as neat and tidy as you think it would.

nothing about the Middle East is neat and tidy. But I don't think it can be argued that a US disengagement from the Arab/Israeli conflict and general backing off from the region wouldn't at least remove America from the conflict. Granted, there would still be innumerable problems with the place... they just wouldn't be our problems, and thus, no 9/11...
 
nothing about the Middle East is neat and tidy. But I don't think it can be argued that a US disengagement from the Arab/Israeli conflict and general backing off from the region wouldn't at least remove America from the conflict. Granted, there would still be innumerable problems with the place... they just wouldn't be our problems, and thus, no 9/11...

Iam sorry, but time and again the rest of the world has stubbornly refused to let the American osteritch alone to have it's head in the sand.
 
Iam sorry, but time and again the rest of the world has stubbornly refused to let the American osteritch alone to have it's head in the sand.

well, your OP was about how to stop AQ from wanting to carry out 9/11, and to be blunt, an American retreat from the entire Middle East debacle (and the Arab/Israeli conflict in particular) is about the only way to do that... it's not realistic to have the USA totally disengage from such an important area of the world (regardless of how much I'd like to see it happen), but it suits the POD asked for...
 
well, your OP was about how to stop AQ from wanting to carry out 9/11, and to be blunt, an American retreat from the entire Middle East debacle (and the Arab/Israeli conflict in particular) is about the only way to do that... it's not realistic to have the USA totally disengage from such an important area of the world (regardless of how much I'd like to see it happen), but it suits the POD asked for...

I did not write the OP, good sir.
 
I was going to suggest that he meant YOUR original post in this thread, but that doesn't really fit with his comment on it.
No, it doesn't really.

ANyway, I have always been a big fan of proactive solutions not isolation or reactive solutions. and isolationism in any respect has too great a danger of putting the U.S> on the back foot in any situation.
 
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