Would it have been plausible for the Khazars to convert to Orthodoxy?

raharris1973

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The Christian kind, not the Jewish kind.

What could help it happen

If so, what does this do to Russia? Perhaps accelerates its adoption of Eastern Orthodoxy, or does it somehow make it more likely that Russia will do something else, like adopt Roman Catholicism?
 
A lot of threads really want Christianity taking over the world. And a lot more want to knock off the Ottomans or make Asia or Africa White. Time for someone from Ghana to take over Europe. Yep, and Mexico always goes belly up to Texans after a futile fight where 1000 Mexicans die and about 4 Texans. Has anybody gamed these situations using Lanchesters single or square laws.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
The Rus convert to Christianity before the Great Schism so there is only one church. Don't see why they would prefer the Pope over the Patriarch. Actually, don't know why any of the world's kingdoms stuck with the Pope. Orthodoxy is just so much better from the state's point of view
 
Orthodox Judaism didn't emerge into the mainstream until the late 1800s. Easy: kill Islam by killing Mohammed; have him get trampled as an infant or something.

The Rus convert to Christianity before the Great Schism so there is only one church. Don't see why they would prefer the Pope over the Patriarch. Actually, don't know why any of the world's kingdoms stuck with the Pope. Orthodoxy is just so much better from the state's point of view

For some it was a matter of belief, but for the most part it was distance from the resepctive heads of each faith. Why would you want to be Orthodox when Constantinople is across Europe and the Pope can reach you in a week? Beyond that, it would suck to be a Catholic sorrounded by Orthodox kingdoms. Plot twist: the terms Catholic and Orthodox mean the same thing. Still, you have a few Gnostics and many Nestorians and Mono/Miaphysites around.
 
A lot of threads really want Christianity taking over the world. And a lot more want to knock off the Ottomans or make Asia or Africa White. Time for someone from Ghana to take over Europe. Yep, and Mexico always goes belly up to Texans after a futile fight where 1000 Mexicans die and about 4 Texans. Has anybody gamed these situations using Lanchesters single or square laws.


What does this have to do with the plausibility of a conversion of Khazaria to Orthodox Christianity?
 
It is somewhat plausible, as I have said in another thread on this forum. The Khazars due to distance and a lack of real religious power exerted by Byzantium would be slightly more likely than Islam. As well due to the prestige of Byzantium, it is likely they convert to orthodoxy rather than other sects (Gnostics,Coptic or Nestorian).

As far as Russia goes they convert regardless of Khazaria. But a more interesting effect would be a longer lasting Khazaria which becomes the envy of other northern steppe nomads. These nomads then adopt Christianity after conquering Khazaria as the religion of prestige or whatever.
 
And while we're at it. Let us have a POD where Constantine gets done in by a relative and the entire empire accepts Zorastrianism and we have a common religion from India to Ireland. "Shoot straight, ride well, and tell the truth!"
 
And while we're at it. Let us have a POD where Constantine gets done in by a relative and the entire empire accepts Zorastrianism and we have a common religion from India to Ireland. "Shoot straight, ride well, and tell the truth!"

Too bad you can't convert to Zoroastrianism

Also, why would a emperor ruling over a realm perpetually in war with a Zoroastrian state have a Zoroastrian relative? Manichaean would be less ASB. Although I do get your point.
 
You could end up with a major power stretching over the Eurasian steppe that adheres to an Orthodox brand of Christianity... Which is not all that different from history.
 

CalBear

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A lot of threads really want Christianity taking over the world. And a lot more want to knock off the Ottomans or make Asia or Africa White. Time for someone from Ghana to take over Europe. Yep, and Mexico always goes belly up to Texans after a futile fight where 1000 Mexicans die and about 4 Texans. Has anybody gamed these situations using Lanchesters single or square laws.

And while we're at it. Let us have a POD where Constantine gets done in by a relative and the entire empire accepts Zorastrianism and we have a common religion from India to Ireland. "Shoot straight, ride well, and tell the truth!"

What do either of these have to do with the POD/WI?

Please don't tread derail
 

raharris1973

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173rd LRRP
A lot of threads really want Christianity taking over the world. And a lot more want to knock off the Ottomans or make Asia or Africa White. Time for someone from Ghana to take over Europe. Yep, and Mexico always goes belly up to Texans after a futile fight where 1000 Mexicans die and about 4 Texans. Has anybody gamed these situations using Lanchesters single or square laws.


In all fairness 173rd LRRP, I tried to make the Khazars (and possibly Russians) Muslims before I tried to make them Orthodox Christians.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=341328

...but John7755 discouraged me, so I gave up and tried the other alternative, because I was determined to propose a Khazar what if :)

Harald Sigurdson - your thought below seems incomplete, I'm not sure your point of view on the OP is as clear to the rest of it as it is to you, as currently written.
Easy: kill Islam by killing Mohammed; have him get trampled as an infant or something.
 
Harald Sigurdson - your thought below seems incomplete, I'm not sure your point of view on the OP is as clear to the rest of it as it is to you, as currently written.

Sorry there. Have Mohammed simply not exist and run that PoD 20 times, I assure the Khazars end up Orthodox atleast half the time.
 
173rd LRRP



In all fairness 173rd LRRP, I tried to make the Khazars (and possibly Russians) Muslims before I tried to make them Orthodox Christians.

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=341328

...but John7755 discouraged me, so I gave up and tried the other alternative, because I was determined to propose a Khazar what if :)

Harald Sigurdson - your thought below seems incomplete, I'm not sure your point of view on the OP is as clear to the rest of it as it is to you, as currently written.

Don't let me discourage you. I meant that during the timeframe (when Abbasids were full power) it was unlikely for a conversion to Islam. However if you want the best way to have an Islamic Khazaria, it would be an early fall of the Umayyads, say they get curbstomped by Khawarij and Shi'a rebels thus decentralizing the Ummah (this almost happened otl). If this happened and the Ummah was decentralized then it would be possible that Khazaria would convert to Islam without the threat of the mega Caliphate claiming all the faithful. This tl would look a lot like post Seljuk empire Middle East split between Sunni,Khawarij and Shi'a.

What would be fun would be to see a Shi'a Eurasion steppe, off of the top of my head I cannot think of one Shi'a state north of the Caucus. Also it would be fun to see total Takfiri Khawarij jihad on all the kafirs (everyone almost, atleast for the Khawarij).
 
And while we're at it. Let us have a POD where Constantine gets done in by a relative and the entire empire accepts Zorastrianism and we have a common religion from India to Ireland. "Shoot straight, ride well, and tell the truth!"


First of all, Zoroastrianism is not a popular religion per say like Christianity, Islam, Buddhism and Manichaeism, and is ingrained in Iranian culture and nostalgia. Zoroastrianism is rooted in cultural superiority of the Persians and the sophistication of their culture. In antiquity the Iranian states used Zoroastrianism as a stabillity religion, meaning that they would use the religion for stabillity and would claim direct ancestors to either Ahura Mazda or Zurvan and it was the religion of Persian culture and built up the myths of old that the Persiabs held so dearly, it solidified the Aryan/Persian/Iranian mindset. Therefore in orthodox ancient and medieval Zoroastrianism, the only way to be a Zoroastrian is to either be culturally Iranian or to give up your old culture for the new one.

I would now like for you to use logic and give way to reason, and ask yourself why would Byzantium who (just like Iranians of antiquity) believed in their own cultural superiority (Roman and Greek) convert too a religion that said that another culture was inheritantly more spiritual and superior than your own and the only way to join would be to adopt that culture?

Trust me I am a big fan of Zoroastrianism a and Persian culture and have written extensively about them since I joined in December. However I do not delve into romanticism, and based on your earlier post on this thread it might come from a dislike of Western culture. Either way it has nothing to do with Khazaria and the plausibility of their conversion.
 

LordKalvert

Banned
For some it was a matter of belief, but for the most part it was distance from the resepctive heads of each faith. Why would you want to be Orthodox when Constantinople is across Europe and the Pope can reach you in a week? Beyond that, it would suck to be a Catholic sorrounded by Orthodox kingdoms. Plot twist: the terms Catholic and Orthodox mean the same thing. Still, you have a few Gnostics and many Nestorians and Mono/Miaphysites around.

Orthodoxy is better because:

The Patriarch isn't the Pope, makes no claims to universal head ship of the Church, allows you (actually requires you) to approve all Bishops in your territory and believes that the Church is subordinate to secular law that doesn't conflict with scripture. The head of the Orthodox Church is the bishop of the local diocese subject to the discipline of the local Synod so all religious matters would be handled right at home All nice things for a Prince. Control over Church lands is the biggest struggle of the Reformation- in Russia, it was a bookkeeping entry



Catholic means "universal"
Orthodox means "right believing"
 

raharris1973

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Actually, don't know why any of the world's kingdoms stuck with the Pope. Orthodoxy is just so much better from the state's point of view

Orthodoxy is better because:

The Patriarch isn't the Pope, makes no claims to universal head ship of the Church, allows you (actually requires you) to approve all Bishops in your territory and believes that the Church is subordinate to secular law that doesn't conflict with scripture. The head of the Orthodox Church is the bishop of the local diocese subject to the discipline of the local Synod so all religious matters would be handled right at home All nice things for a Prince. Control over Church lands is the biggest struggle of the Reformation- in Russia, it was a bookkeeping entry

This still doesn't deal with the problem of "but they didn't go orthodox".

Why did the Merovingians and Carolingians give the church so much land and provide so much deference to the Bishop of Rome? I know being Trinitarian rather than Arian gave them a big political advantage over Arian enemies in gaining loyalty over local populations of laity and clergy, but couldn't keeping mastery over the church like the eastern emperors have worked about as well to gain that edge?

Now once the Merovingians and Carolingians had proceeded well along the path of deference to the Pope, I suppose that it was not really possible to get out of that rut given how much property the church acquired and the ability of increasingly independent nobles as we moved into feudalism to play Emperor and Pope against each other.

So, I guess that accounts for developments in northern Italy, the HRE, Croatia, France, the Low Countries and northern Spain.

But why wouldn't other Kingdoms that became Christian before the formal split of 1071 (England, Asturias, Benevento-south Italy, Denmark, Norway, Sweden, Poland, & Hungary) have kept the church under their thumb and autocephalus in the style of the Byzantine Emperors (and Bulgarian, Serbian, Georgian rulers)?
 
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