Would Ireland independent??

Define British?
Surely someone who wholeheartedly owe allegience to the crown...?
Try telling Paisley that seeing he was born on this island he is Irish and not British.

I'd stand well back if I were you. The man might take slight offence at it.

:D

Nationality is a matter of self-identification. Mr.Paisley believes he is British. Most Anglo-Irish lords would have considered themselves Irish and British at the same time.

The definition of "Ireland" and "Irishness" has obviously shifted since Partition. That's one of the essential errors of all nationalist historiography: making the nation (and therefore its interests and welfare) eternal, whereas in fact nations are invented, cease to exist, and change often.
 
Nationality is a matter of self-identification.
Im not totally sure about that.
I cant say I'm Russian (Even if I was mad about the place, learned the language, traditions, got the accent etc), I wasnt born there, Ive never been there.
So self determination is only part of it.

Location? Place of Birth? Partly them too.

To my mind its part of all of the above, plus the desire for the betterment of your country as a Country.

hehehe, now Setanta define a landlords country? Surely this is Britain and Ireland.
Yes, but if a country is taken over by another and all subsequent generations (majority of which) wanted to cut ties/lessen restrictions imposed by etc with the powers that be in Britain. This makes Ireland an occupied state - there was never a lack of crown forces in Ireland, be they army or tax collectors. Therefore, anyone born here that owes allegience to a foreign Crown is a traitor...?
(Personnally I think its a bit harsh to say the least, but I do love playing Devil's advocate... :p)
 
Ohh well back to WWII and the Free State. Like I said British servicemen who found themselves in the free state as a result of lets say being shot down, were fairly quickly returned to Britain and their units.
Luftwaffe pilots however were kept in the Curragh camp for the duration.

Also the RAF were allowed to use Irish airspace - the Donegal Corridor.

Oonly after 1943 when the Americans leant on the Irish government. The Curragh camp held 2 compounds until then for airmen who had crash landed in Eire.Not only were allied airmen interned until 1943 but they had to prove to the authorities in Northern Ireland that they had legitamely escaped and had not absonded when they were parolled at weekends. If they coouldn't prove they had escaped they were handed over to the Garda and returned to Curragh.

The Donegal air corridor is something I was not aware of but quite often overflying takes place during wars and if the neutral country has no air force or a small air force it can do little about it. Sometimes overflying is with agreement i.e. Iran in the first Gulf War sometimes it is turned aq blind eye to i.e. Chile in the Falklands

But in 1943 the extermination camps were not known to DeValera (as far as I know, def not public knowledge) so any chance of using that as a reason for getting the Free State into the war on the side against the Nazis doesnt exist. The war up to that point was simply yet another bloodbath between Germany and the ol' enemy Britain.

Why join in when:
there was still soreness between Britain and the Free State over past goings on
You have no real offensive/defensive forces
When joining would probably reignited a civil war
When Britain was stretched to provide its own defense, could hardly provide it for Ireland as well.
When memory of the Somme etc was still pretty clear in the collective memory.
When Hitler would have ground the country into the mud.
...

The Free State didnt have to agree to the Donegal Corridor, the RAF could have just overflew it as you say. But it was a indication of support.


http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-icing-on-the-cake-211669.html

Never knew some of this stuff.
 
Im not totally sure about that.
I cant say I'm Russian (Even if I was mad about the place, learned the language, traditions, got the accent etc), I wasnt born there, Ive never been there.
So self determination is only part of it.

All nationality is imagined. Most "national languages" are one literary standard that has prevailed over a mess of regional dialects which survive in colloquial speech. Whole nations which never before existed can be brought into being by simple consensus: if "Macedonians" had never existedbefore the 1880s, a bunch of Slav peasants without national consciousness and a handful of Bulgarian intellectuals "going mad about the place" is all that happened; and if you go back far enough, every "nation" is much the same. We create nations by identifying with them.

If I learned Russian, gained Russian citizenship, and went to live in Russia, I'd be just as Russian as that German-Swedish-Kalmyk-Mordovian-Ashkenazi bloke Vladimir Lenin was. :p

Location? Place of Birth? Partly them too.

So if I was born in Bosnia, am I a Serb or a Croat or a Bosniak? Or as an English-speaking subject of Her Maj, am I just a Briton who happened to be born in Bosnia?

(And note that self-identification is the only thing that distinguished Croats and Serbs. If I can tranform myself into a Croat by converting to "Catholicism", why can't I transform myself into a Russian by converting to "Russiandom"? They have an equal presence in the physical world, that is, none.

To my mind its part of all of the above, plus the desire for the betterment of your country as a Country.

Totally anachronistic attitude. Metternich would never have denied being a German for a second, but her had no desire whatever to "better" Germany and the "German cause" and dedicated much of his later life to fighting it.

And since when do people agree about what the betterment of the country entails?

hehehe, now Setanta define a landlords country? Surely this is Britain and Ireland.
Yes, but if a country is taken over by another and all subsequent generations (majority of which) wanted to cut ties/lessen restrictions imposed by etc with the powers that be in Britain. This makes Ireland an occupied state - there was never a lack of crown forces in Ireland, be they army or tax collectors. Therefore, anyone born here that owes allegience to a foreign Crown is a traitor...?

The idea that one's personal opinion can make one a "traitor" is bleedin' scary and rather totalitarian. The majority of every Scottish generation since the 1950s have not been Tory voters. Does that make everyone who voted Tory this last campaign a "traitor to Scotland"?

That path leads to GULAG.
 
Im not totally sure about that.
I cant say I'm Russian (Even if I was mad about the place, learned the language, traditions, got the accent etc), I wasnt born there, Ive never been there.
So self determination is only part of it.

Location? Place of Birth? Partly them too.

To my mind its part of all of the above, plus the desire for the betterment of your country as a Country.

I'd disagree with this however following this logic the Irish landlords were still Irish.
I'm going to go off on a bit of a tangent here but bare with me:

The British landlord at his absolute worst was indifferent about the fate of the Irish workers on his land. The whole stereotypical git who says "Who cares if a few workers die, I want my profits!". He lives on his nice comfortable estate in Shropshire and to him his lands in Ireland are just a handy source of cash located in some backwards far off backwards part of the country. As long as his drinking money keeps trickling in he doesn't much care what happens.
To the worst Irish landlord meanwhile Ireland is home. Its where he was born, where his ancestors were born, where his children are born. Its his lovely little island. Yet...its infested. The stinking stench of popery still runs free on his island. Yes, the government says you have to treat catholics equal these days. But...what the hell? Just look at them. They're sub-human scum who must be stomped down into the dirt every chance he gets.
The worst of Irish is far far worse to have as your landlord than the worst of British. Wheras the Briton is uncaring the Irishman activly hates you- you're no threat to the Briton wheras the Irish landlord is part of a power holding minority.

However...to get back to your point...The bastardy Irish landlord would think he is doing good in his mistreatment of the peasents. A Ireland free of Catholocism is a dream land for him. Working against the church is certainly working for the betterment of the country in his eyes.
 
All nationality is imagined.

...
If I learned Russian, gained Russian citizenship, and went to live in Russia, I'd be just as Russian as that German-Swedish-Kalmyk-Mordovian-Ashkenazi bloke Vladimir Lenin was. :p
....

So you espouse a One World Government/Citizenship?
Personnally I do but hey, that me!

but anyways for the sake of arguement:
I thought your phrase "gained Russian citizenship" interesting. How could any of the Landed gentry - assuming they stemmed from Britain - gain Irish Citizenship? Was it given to them by the same country that invaded Ireland and sent them there?
It can be argued that they and their subsequent decendants are illegal immirgrants, planted in a country to further the power asperations of the ruling British Elite.

Ahh im crap at explaining what I mean.

Basically, its a way to legitimise an invasion and ethnic cleansing.

Eventually.

Invade, drive out, plant with loyal subjects. With the next generation you have planters born in Ireland professing to be Irish. When all they are is the decendants of thieves still in receipt of stolen property.

Erm, in a modern context, see the Israelis in the West Bank/East Jerusalem. The decendants of the people moving there today will have the excuse of "we were born here" to legitimise their landgrab.
Still illegal.


And yes, its happened elsewhere, since time began.
hard to know what to argue, whats right n wrong or what really happens in the world?
Twould be nice to believe that life is fair and Bambi's mother doesnt die... but....:D
 
So you espouse a One World Government/Citizenship?
Personnally I do but hey, that me!

Not in my lifetime: states are here to stay for now. Just because something exists only in our minds doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

but anyways for the sake of arguement:
I thought your phrase "gained Russian citizenship" interesting. How could any of the Landed gentry - assuming they stemmed from Britain - gain Irish Citizenship? Was it given to them by the same country that invaded Ireland and sent them there?

1) Many came from Irish - including Hiberno-Norman - families that had Anglfiied. Of course by the 18th century everything was so intermixed that that's academic.

2) Didn't used to be any Russians up around Simbirsk. Who made Mr. Vladimir Ulyanov a Russian subject? Same Slavs who invaded the Urals centuries ago, that's who!

All people are originally migrants from somewhere. It's not in anybody's power to choose where they're born. The actual implications of your ideas being carried to its logical extent - for instance, all Malays, Indians, and Chinese in Malaysia losing their voting rights in favour of the Orang Asli - are pretty whacky.

It can be argued that they and their subsequent decendants are illegal immirgrants, planted in a country to further the power asperations of the ruling British Elite.

Ahh im crap at explaining what I mean.

Are you saying that all European inhabitants of the Americas and Australia are illegal immigrants?

Basically, its a way to legitimise an invasion and ethnic cleansing.

Eventually.

"Ethnic cleansing" did not exist until fairly recently. The resources just weren't there.

Invade, drive out, plant with loyal subjects. With the next generation you have planters born in Ireland professing to be Irish. When all they are is the decendants of thieves still in receipt of stolen property.

1) The Anglo-Irish gentry and the Ulster planters were completely differant things.

2) "Drive out"? There was lots of back-and-forth massacring during the Confederate wars, but before then, the Irish and Planter inhabitants in Ulster had actually coexisted quite well.

Erm, in a modern context, see the Israelis in the West Bank/East Jerusalem. The decendants of the people moving there today will have the excuse of "we were born here" to legitimise their landgrab.
Still illegal.

And still nobody actually gives any credence to the idea of driving the Jews into the sea.

And yes, its happened elsewhere, since time began.
hard to know what to argue, whats right n wrong or what really happens in the world?
Twould be nice to believe that life is fair and Bambi's mother doesnt die... but....:D

But it's not. The past was shit. The only way we can do anything about that fact is to not behave like people in the past did by, for example, committing acts of terrorism, making aggressive claims against neighbouring states...
 
Not in my lifetime: states are here to stay for now. Just because something exists only in our minds doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

...

"Ethnic cleansing" did not exist until fairly recently. The resources just weren't there.

..
But it's not. The past was shit. The only way we can do anything about that fact is to not behave like people in the past did by, for example, committing acts of terrorism, making aggressive claims against neighbouring states...

:) You got me thinking about The Matrix - "..there is no spoon"

Not sure about Ethnic Cleansing being a recent thing. Staying Mid-East on this one:
The Diaspora (may be not 100% but did remove alot of the Jewish people)
Biblical: Babylonian Exile - perhaps not permanent but still cleansing of an ethnic group from an area of land

"The past was shit"
And staying Biblical - "There is nothing new under the sun"

HEHEHE Damn you IBC!! Its annoyingly difficult to argue with you and make any headway. *Doffs Cap* ;)

I feel like Im trying to eat an apple the size of my head, no matter how I tilt my head I cant get a bite!
 
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