Would Greek Civilization survive a defeat at Salamis?

[Tobit]

On the other hand the Persians did sometimes forcibly deport rebellious peoples. Take the example of the Ionians deported to Bactria. Perhaps the Spartans would find themselves exiled to Central Asia or maybe Africa? This might actually expand the impact of greek culture.

But the question is a bit weird, the Persians never de-civilized a region. The question almost implies Greeks leaving their cities and becoming nomadic barbarians.

 

[Cuāuhtemōc]

On the other hand the Persians did sometimes forcibly deport rebellious peoples. Take the example of the Ionians deported to Bactria. Perhaps the Spartans would find themselves exiled to Central Asia or maybe Africa? This might actually expand the impact of greek culture.

But the question is a bit weird, the Persians never de-civilized a region. The question almost implies Greeks leaving their cities and becoming nomadic barbarians.

Maybe we can have the Spartans exiled into Gandhara? I recalled that place was a Persian satrapy and it would be sort of cool to have at least a small Greek presence there.

 

[Pachac]

Maybe we can have the Spartans exiled into Gandhara? I recalled that place was a Persian satrapy and it would be sort of cool to have at least a small Greek presence there.

Gandhara was lost in the time of Xerxes and the Spartans would probably just be deprived of their slaves and status and forced to work their land.

 

[The Ubbergeek]

Gandhara was lost in the time of Xerxes and the Spartans would probably just be deprived of their slaves and status and forced to work their land.

Which would be in a way a form of justice, considering the real state of Spartan society...

 

[Color-Copycat]

There'd always be a few hardy, out-of-the-way city states to keep the torch burning.

 

[Thucydides]

Maybe we can have the Spartans exiled into Gandhara? I recalled that place was a Persian satrapy and it would be sort of cool to have at least a small Greek presence there.

I don't think the Spartans would let themselves be deported, they would probably take to the hills in a primitive form of guerilla warfare. That was, after all, part of their training at the expense of the helots. That in itself wouldn't really change that much though, we don't really remember the Spartan part of Greek culture as part of western Civilization anyway, Athens has managed to steal the show in that regard. Possibly the brave stand of the Spartans through Persian occupation would give our idea of Greek civilization a more militarist flair than IOTL.

 

[Pachac]

I don't think the Spartans would let themselves be deported, they would probably take to the hills in a primitive form of guerilla warfare. That was, after all, part of their training at the expense of the helots. That in itself wouldn't really change that much though, we don't really remember the Spartan part of Greek culture as part of western Civilization anyway, Athens has managed to steal the show in that regard. Possibly the brave stand of the Spartans through Persian occupation would give our idea of Greek civilization a more militarist flair than IOTL.

The Spartans can't take to the hills. They are trained in the art of the pitched battle, not asymmetrical warfare.

 

[Mikestone8]

The Spartans can't take to the hills. They are trained in the art of the pitched battle, not asymmetrical warfare.

Especially as the Helots (the great majority of their population) would be likely to take the Persian side.

It's much the same problem the Confederates would have about resorting to guerilla war in 1865

 

[Flocculencio]

All these comments about "taking to the hills" and "keeping the torch burning" are somewhat overblown. It's not as if the Persians were going to up and exterminate the Greeks. A whole lot of Greek poleis didn't take part in the Persian Wars and did just fine- all the Persians wanted was tribute and presumably military levies and actual control of such a far-off and relatively poor satrapy would be one of the first things to go if there was trouble back home.

Greek civilisation and identity were never at stake. As the earlier poster said the view of the dusky hordes of Asia pouring across Hellespont, eager to drive their banners into the heart of Europa was simply Athenian PR created after the fact.

 

[Nooj]

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. I always thought the Persians were hideous Orc-creatures who came to destroy Western civilisation!

 

[Elfwine]

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you. I always thought the Persians were hideous Orc-creatures who came to destroy Western civilisation!

"They have an army of 2.5 million strong, with but a single purpose. To destroy the world of Hellas."

Sorry Greece, you're not worth the trouble.

 

[Pachac]

All these comments about "taking to the hills" and "keeping the torch burning" are somewhat overblown. It's not as if the Persians were going to up and exterminate the Greeks. A whole lot of Greek poleis didn't take part in the Persian Wars and did just fine- all the Persians wanted was tribute and presumably military levies and actual control of such a far-off and relatively poor satrapy would be one of the first things to go if there was trouble back home.

Greek civilisation and identity were never at stake. As the earlier poster said the view of the dusky hordes of Asia pouring across Hellespont, eager to drive their banners into the heart of Europa was simply Athenian PR created after the fact.

Pretty much. Greek culture would be allowed free reign inside of Persia. Besides a few punitive expeditions against rebellions and regular inspections by the Eye of the King they wouldn't have to worry about anything.

 

[Thucydides]

Pretty much. Greek culture would be allowed free reign inside of Persia. Besides a few punitive expeditions against rebellions and regular inspections by the Eye of the King they wouldn't have to worry about anything.

But once again, Spartan culture doesn't exactly fall into line with what we think of as Greek, at least for the most part. And the Spartans were trained in asymmetrical warfare as much as one could be in that age. They were taught to steal, kill, and live stealthily and basically under the same conditions as their would be for an occupation far more brutal than that of the Persians.

 

[Pachac]

But once again, Spartan culture doesn't exactly fall into line with what we think of as Greek, at least for the most part. And the Spartans were trained in asymmetrical warfare as much as one could be in that age. They were taught to steal, kill, and live stealthily and basically under the same conditions as their would be for an occupation far more brutal than that of the Persians.

You seem to be thinking in wholly anachronistic terms. While the tradition of sending youths out to hunt and kill Helots was practiced(It has even been dispelled as a myth by some historians, considering the lack of Spartan literature on it) that is not adequate training for a sustained guerrilla campaign. From day one the Spartans were trained to fight their enemy in pitched battle, in heavy arms and armor, and to not be a coward. They're not going to scamper around attacking Persians in the night. It wouldn't matter anyways since it's likely the actual male population of Sparta would be too small to put up effective resistance after a failed war against Persia takes its toll. Teaching them how to be a bandit is not asymmetrical warfare. You need sophisticated strategies of how to use light troops effectively.

 

[Thucydides]

You seem to be thinking in wholly anachronistic terms. While the tradition of sending youths out to hunt and kill Helots was practiced(It has even been dispelled as a myth by some historians, considering the lack of Spartan literature on it) that is not adequate training for a sustained guerrilla campaign. From day one the Spartans were trained to fight their enemy in pitched battle, in heavy arms and armor, and to not be a coward. They're not going to scamper around attacking Persians in the night. It wouldn't matter anyways since it's likely the actual male population of Sparta would be too small to put up effective resistance after a failed war against Persia takes its toll. Teaching them how to be a bandit is not asymmetrical warfare. You need sophisticated strategies of how to use light troops effectively.

Even so, with my limited knowledge of Greek history, it seems unlikely to me that the Spartans would be willing to spend their days farming (someone said the Helots would take the Persian side and I wholeheartedly agree). Could they even go somewhere else and subjugate another people like they did to the Helots or is that really stretching it.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Greek civilization would not have survived a Persian conquest. Materially and economically, they would have been just fine. Indeed, they might have actually been more prosperous under Persian rule than they were IOTL. But the most important qualities of Greek civilization were a product of political disunity and the institution of the assembly, which would have either vanished or been reduced to irrelevance under Persian rule.

 

[Pachac]

Even so, with my limited knowledge of Greek history, it seems unlikely to me that the Spartans would be willing to spend their days farming (someone said the Helots would take the Persian side and I wholeheartedly agree). Could they even go somewhere else and subjugate another people like they did to the Helots or is that really stretching it.

They would never be allowed to do such a thing. You seem to be misunderstanding my point. They aren't saying 'go farm'. They're saying 'Go farm or you'll find yourselves in Gandhara'. This would be after the heart of the Spartan army has already been dissipated.

 

[Pachac]

Greek civilization would not have survived a Persian conquest. Materially and economically, they would have been just fine. Indeed, they might have actually been more prosperous under Persian rule than they were IOTL. But the most important qualities of Greek civilization were a product of political disunity and the institution of the assembly, which would have either vanished or been reduced to irrelevance under Persian rule.

Both of which will exist outside of Mainland Greece, which was a backwater compared to the insanely rich cities of Sicily.

 

[Anaxagoras]

Both of which will exist outside of Mainland Greece, which was a backwater compared to the insanely rich cities of Sicily.

Then why did the most important cultural contributions of the Greeks come from mainland Greece or Ionia, rather than Sicily or Magna Gracia? Wealth does not necessarily lead to cultural vibrancy, and can even be counter productive under some circumstances. Athens, Corinth and Miletus were the true birthplaces of Greek culture; Syracuse and other western cities made smaller and later contributions.

Take Miletus, for example. It was pretty much the birthplace of rational inquiry and empirical science: Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes and so forth. But when the Persians took over, Miletus sank into a cultural stupor.

 

[Pachac]

Then why did the most important cultural contributions of the Greeks come from mainland Greece or Ionia, rather than Sicily or Magna Gracia? Wealth does not necessarily lead to cultural vibrancy, and can even be counter productive under some circumstances. Athens, Corinth and Miletus were the true birthplaces of Greek culture; Syracuse and other western cities made smaller and later contributions.

Take Miletus, for example. It was pretty much the birthplace of rational inquiry and empirical science: Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes and so forth. But when the Persians took over, Miletus sank into a cultural stupor.

It seems peculiar to me to claim that such a cultural stupor would exist when one considers that the majority of these cities will likely be client states and tributaries, especially the ones of western Greece, not to mention the declining authority of the Persian Emperors will allow many of the Greek states to continue to pursue their former political roles. The amount of Greek cities who simply allowed themselves to become client states are fairly high. You seem to imply that the political disunity encouraged culture; it seems strange in the light of the brilliance of the Hellenistic world which took the machinations of Greece to a much higher level than before.