Would French culture always come to dominate an Angevin Empire?

Basically what it says on the tin. Whether through an English victory in the 100 Years War or through some other way, the Angevin Empire exists.

Would French culture always dominate such a union? Is it possible for mainland France to become more "English" then French? Or is the fusion of cultures likely to result in an "Anglois" culture or a more French Britain.

Every timeline or scenario I've seen has the French dominating. I'm not very familiar with this period so I thought I'd ask. Does it have something to do with the populations of the time?

Thanks guys! :biggrin:
 
The Anvegin Empire was destroyed when John lackland failed. By the time the HYW came, all that was left was Aquitaine, a small part of their former continental holdings. So it's not saving the Angevin Empire, but simply taking both thrones, which contains their old lands.
 
France had a bigger population, more money, a more storied history and culture. Think of it like the Kings of Scotland. England was richer and more populous.

The nation naturally gravitates towards the money, population, and the prestige.

England probably gets Frencified more than OTL here.
 
England probably gets Frencified more than OTL here.

Given how much Norman dialect influenced modern English (and Old English being unintelligible to the untrained modern Englishman), imagine the effects on food tastes, clothing, table manners, courtship rituals, and more down the line.
 
How much of modern France could England have taken and assimilated into English culture, rather than the other way around? The territory of the OTL United Kingdom, plus Normandy? Plus Normandy and Brittany? Plus Normandy, Brittany and all or part of Guyenne?
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
I would say that a score draw in the 100 years' war, England gets Normandy, Gascony and a few ports further up the coast, had the possibility to create a separate Gascon language and a more Norman Anglo-Norman language.
 
How much of modern France could England have taken and assimilated into English culture, rather than the other way around? The territory of the OTL United Kingdom, plus Normandy? Plus Normandy and Brittany? Plus Normandy, Brittany and all or part of Guyenne?

Probably none, especially since they weren't legally part of England, they were part of France. Only Normandy could have more English influences, mainly because of how close it is, but Normans aren't going to be speaking English any time soon.

I would say that a score draw in the 100 years' war, England gets Normandy, Gascony and a few ports further up the coast, had the possibility to create a separate Gascon language and a more Norman Anglo-Norman language.

It seems difficult to not have Anglo-Norman slowly fade into French as it did OTL. Especially since the native speakers will increasingly switch to English or French as their first language.
 
Basically what it says on the tin. Whether through an English victory in the 100 Years War or through some other way, the Angevin Empire exists.

Would French culture always dominate such a union? Is it possible for mainland France to become more "English" then French? Or is the fusion of cultures likely to result in an "Anglois" culture or a more French Britain.

Every timeline or scenario I've seen has the French dominating. I'm not very familiar with this period so I thought I'd ask. Does it have something to do with the populations of the time?

Thanks guys! :biggrin:

English Kings and aristocracy spoke French (or rather Anglo-Norman, which is a french language) until the beginning of the XVth c. The Parliament's work language was Anglo-Norman until the middle of the XVth c. Any prior PoD would only give them more reason to use French. In fact, it is the English defeat in the HYW that helped the rise of the English language.

How much of modern France could England have taken and assimilated into English culture, rather than the other way around? The territory of the OTL United Kingdom, plus Normandy? Plus Normandy and Brittany? Plus Normandy, Brittany and all or part of Guyenne?

That did not work that way : England would not have taken France, but the same man would be King of England and Duke of Aquitaine/Normandy. You would need a PoD where the English king and aristocracy forgot their own language and favored the language of the peasants, plus another PoD with a total elimination of the local lords in the continental fiefdoms of the king and their replacement by English and English-speaking lords. Plus some centuries of cultural assimilation. In France, the local languages did not became second languages until the middle of the XXth century, after some 6 or 7 centuries under a French-speaking king and 5 centuries under a French-speaking administration.
 
I'd always argue that it depends on how an Angevin King sets up his rule.

If he relies in being French, and keeping French Nobles happy, you'll probably see more Parisian influence on English, but potentially less effort in unifying lang d'oc and d'oil.

The risk with that is that England breaks away. Parliament is/was a thing, and we're around the time of the Magna Carta. He might lose the minor nobility.

In contrast, I personally think the better strategy would be to do what they were doing. Relying more on their loyal minorities like Gascons. Keeping France culturally fragmented has it's benefits for a conquering monarch. Plus, bringing in Englishmen and Gascons to help you maintain control makes them richer and more loyal, allows you to centralise, and undermine the residual old nobility.

In that scenario English will still be more French, but just like English had Latinate words for institutions and Germanic words for the home, I think you'll see similar patterns in France, but with Gremanic words more Middle Class, Latinate as Upper class and French style words as more homely, unless using 'English' becomes more practical.

I think the meme holds because most of the time we don't look at home an Angevin Empire would function, but just at demographics and apply gradualism too readily. However, you only have to look at India to realise how powerful an effect power structures can influence language and culture.
 
How much of modern France could England have taken and assimilated into English culture, rather than the other way around? The territory of the OTL United Kingdom, plus Normandy? Plus Normandy and Brittany? Plus Normandy, Brittany and all or part of Guyenne?

If the english can hold Calais untill the 18-19th century I can see it there.

If he relies in being French, and keeping French Nobles happy

I think that in that scenario we are going to see in nine times out of ten a situation in wich the majority of the nobles hold lands on both sides of the straits, with them already speaking french, having lands in France and involved in french politics through marriages. So, because of it, I think that it would be hard to see the nobility evolve that english identity.
 
I think that in that scenario we are going to see in nine times out of ten a situation in wich the majority of the nobles hold lands on both sides of the straits, with them already speaking french, having lands in France and involved in french politics through marriages. So, because of it, I think that it would be hard to see the nobility evolve that english identity.

I'm purposely looking at the minor nobility, rather than say, Dukes. They're important enough to be something to worry about, but not individually powerful. But they're still the base of the conquering Kings power, without whom he can't raise an army.

These are the people whose children are raised by, surrounded by, and live amongst English people. They'll impact not just the King, but those higher nobility who hold land both sides of the straits. Because they technically lord over those minor barons.

The higher nobility, and the french minor nobility won't Anglicise that much, I'll grant you that.
 
I'm purposely looking at the minor nobility, rather than say, Dukes. They're important enough to be something to worry about, but not individually powerful. But they're still the base of the conquering Kings power, without whom he can't raise an army.

These are the people whose children are raised by, surrounded by, and live amongst English people. They'll impact not just the King, but those higher nobility who hold land both sides of the straits. Because they technically lord over those minor barons.

The higher nobility, and the french minor nobility won't Anglicise that much, I'll grant you that.

I don't think it's likely there will be a major movement of English people to France - not enough to change the local culture. The population of England is not large enough. Some English people might settle but I suspect they would probably assimilate themselves into the local culture rather than the reverse. Also, French is regarded as more of a prestige language than English in this era.
 
I don't think it's likely there will be a major movement of English people to France - not enough to change the local culture. The population of England is not large enough. Some English people might settle but I suspect they would probably assimilate themselves into the local culture rather than the reverse.

I only suggested that if it was deliberate Royal action. Otherwise, it isn't relevant. All I'm saying is that you have to take into account the support for the King, and I'm not convinced that the French are about to start loyally praising the King as soon as he sits on the Throne in Paris. He'll want loyal men, and loyal forces - and because they're important, people will pick up enough English to understand they're being threatened with execution for drinking beer incorrectly. (Or horror, drinking wine). At the very least you'll see small islands of English that becomes increasingly French, or retain its Englishness, entirely based on how the King rules. - but in England, I don't see a French King, in France, having a huge impact on the peasantry. They already served Frenchmen, and they formed OTLs English.
 
I only suggested that if it was deliberate Royal action. Otherwise, it isn't relevant. All I'm saying is that you have to take into account the support for the King, and I'm not convinced that the French are about to start loyally praising the King as soon as he sits on the Throne in Paris. He'll want loyal men, and loyal forces - and because they're important, people will pick up enough English to understand they're being threatened with execution for drinking beer incorrectly.

But in this period, wouldn't these loyal men be francophone themselves? French was the language of the English aristocracy while English was the language of the commoners.
 
I only suggested that if it was deliberate Royal action. Otherwise, it isn't relevant. All I'm saying is that you have to take into account the support for the King, and I'm not convinced that the French are about to start loyally praising the King as soon as he sits on the Throne in Paris. He'll want loyal men, and loyal forces - and because they're important, people will pick up enough English to understand they're being threatened with execution for drinking beer incorrectly. (Or horror, drinking wine). At the very least you'll see small islands of English that becomes increasingly French, or retain its Englishness, entirely based on how the King rules. - but in England, I don't see a French King, in France, having a huge impact on the peasantry. They already served Frenchmen, and they formed OTLs English.
But why would they pick up English? Royalty and the nobility in England already spoke French, not English. They only took up English because they had no French peasants left to rule. If the majority of their powerbase is located in France, French it shall be.

It's easy to see English shift to French, seeing as 1. it did OTL (dictionaries can tell as much) and 2. unless the French are forbidden from settling in England, the French can do what the English did to the Irish due to their demographic superiority.

Besides, if the language of bureaucracy is French and the prestige language of nobility is French, then French becomes popular for the growing middle class. Better trade relations with France's larger markets compels merchants to continue being fluent in French (as they were OTL), lawyers and jurors need to speak French for the sake of legal studies, and French is a better Segway into Latin than English is, which appeals to the clergy. It ends up being a Manchu-Mandarin situation where the conqueror ends up absorbed by the conquered.
 
But in this period, wouldn't these loyal men be francophone themselves? French was the language of the English aristocracy while English was the language of the commoners.

But why would they pick up English? Royalty and the nobility in England already spoke French, not English. They only took up English because they had no French peasants left to rule. If the majority of their powerbase is located in France, French it shall be.

It's easy to see English shift to French, seeing as 1. it did OTL (dictionaries can tell as much) and 2. unless the French are forbidden from settling in England, the French can do what the English did to the Irish due to their demographic superiority.

Besides, if the language of bureaucracy is French and the prestige language of nobility is French, then French becomes popular for the growing middle class. Better trade relations with France's larger markets compels merchants to continue being fluent in French (as they were OTL), lawyers and jurors need to speak French for the sake of legal studies, and French is a better Segway into Latin than English is, which appeals to the clergy. It ends up being a Manchu-Mandarin situation where the conqueror ends up absorbed by the conquered.

1) The language of learning and bureaucracy in France, as I've been informed as Latin for quite a while.

2) I'm not talking about counts and dukes and the like. They were French. I'm talking about barons and baronets. Those who weren't rich enough to have French servants had English ones. I'm talking about the lesser nobility from England in that context.

3) I'm stating that it isn't guaranteed that English will be more French. I'm saying that however the new King of France sorts out his rule makes a difference. I don't see the controversy here.
 
1) The language of learning and bureaucracy in France, as I've been informed as Latin for quite a while.
Latin was still the learned language, but in the Late Middle Ages, the bureaucracy worked increasingly in french.

2) I'm not talking about counts and dukes and the like. They were French. I'm talking about barons and baronets. Those who weren't rich enough to have French servants had English ones. I'm talking about the lesser nobility from England in that context.
Well, given the size of the aristocracy shift after the conquest, even the gentry was french or from french stock or french-speaking at the time. One of the best known heraldic dispute of the Middle Ages is the 1385 Scrope v. Grosvenor, when two knights came to court on the right to use a coat of arms. The procedure was in Anglo norman, both families were of french stock, even if they were ordinary gentry.
 
Latin was still the learned language, but in the Late Middle Ages, the bureaucracy worked increasingly in french.
News to me. Then again, I was never 100% on when the transition would have been.

Well, given the size of the aristocracy shift after the conquest, even the gentry was french or from french stock or french-speaking at the time. One of the best known heraldic dispute of the Middle Ages is the 1385 Scrope v. Grosvenor, when two knights came to court on the right to use a coat of arms. The procedure was in Anglo norman, both families were of french stock, even if they were ordinary gentry.

I won't deny, never heard of the term Anglo-Norman, so at first I thought it was a hybrid of Middle English and Norman - it isn't, as I now know, but the piece had an interesting section very relevant to this discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language#Trilingualism_in_Medieval_England

Specifically - focusing on when language use changed. I does suggest an interesting idea that since French was so fragmented in its regional use, that Anglo-Norman might end up being the equivalent of French, just perhaps with fewer words borrowed from English.

It also points out that if the events in 1420/1429-onwards played out differently, and the Angevin Empire was united at that point, that the King himself spoke English, and took his oaths in English. - However, unlikely you think an English Victory would be at that point, that is when English was taking over linguistically, and had been for decades. So time is ALSO a factor in whether or not the French culture is "The Culture" of the Angevin Empire. Chances are that it may undergo a reversal, or be slightly more influenced by French - could be as simple a PoD as Henry V living another 20 years instead of dying of dysentery.
 

samcster94

Banned
News to me. Then again, I was never 100% on when the transition would have been.



I won't deny, never heard of the term Anglo-Norman, so at first I thought it was a hybrid of Middle English and Norman - it isn't, as I now know, but the piece had an interesting section very relevant to this discussion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Norman_language#Trilingualism_in_Medieval_England

Specifically - focusing on when language use changed. I does suggest an interesting idea that since French was so fragmented in its regional use, that Anglo-Norman might end up being the equivalent of French, just perhaps with fewer words borrowed from English.

It also points out that if the events in 1420/1429-onwards played out differently, and the Angevin Empire was united at that point, that the King himself spoke English, and took his oaths in English. - However, unlikely you think an English Victory would be at that point, that is when English was taking over linguistically, and had been for decades. So time is ALSO a factor in whether or not the French culture is "The Culture" of the Angevin Empire. Chances are that it may undergo a reversal, or be slightly more influenced by French - could be as simple a PoD as Henry V living another 20 years instead of dying of dysentery.
Exactly. After Edward III, English took over England's ruling classes more and more in OTL. Henry V's time is long after the edict issued by Edward III's Parliament(in French).
 
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