Would Fish Have Saved the Greenland Norse?

For some reason, the Greenland Norse developed a fish taboo soon after their arrival, and failed to catch the bounty off their shores. Would a willingness to eat fish have lessened their dependence on ecologically damaging livestock enough to ensure their long-term survival, or was their food production/hunting package too marginal for the environment in any case, even if they had consumed fish?
 
The information you report is based on old research on waste deposits and has been widely spread by Jared Diamond's "Collapse", but more recent and detailed study seem to suggest that fish was actually a normal part of the Greenlanders' diet IIRC.
 
There's no evidence of hunger or starvation among the Greenland Norse so I doubt eating more fish would change their fate. It seems that they left mostly because it was a miserable place in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do but hunt seals. No evidence of starvation, disease, or conflict has been found. They had better economic prospects elsewhere so they left.

Here's a good article on it. http://www.spiegel.de/international...why-vikings-abandoned-greenland-a-876626.html
 
There's no evidence of hunger or starvation among the Greenland Norse so I doubt eating more fish would change their fate. It seems that they left mostly because it was a miserable place in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do but hunt seals. No evidence of starvation, disease, or conflict has been found. They had better economic prospects elsewhere so they left.

Sounds about right, from what I've read. The only way for Greenland to work out is if an accommodation was made with the eventual Inuit arrival, assimilating them into Greenlandic Norse culture. (IOTL some have speculated that the reason why the Greenlandic Norse died out is because the assimilation went in the opposite direction, towards the Inuit and their language and culture. Evidence for this includes many retained features lost in modern Europe since certain features date back to the medieval area, as well as numerous assimilated loanwords into the Greenlandic language, including the word "kalaal" - apparently derived from "skræling" but heavily adapted to Inuit phonology, i.e. the loss of the initial consonant cluster since not only does it violate phonotactic constraints for clusters but Greenlandic has a tendency to reduce them to geminate consonants, or the reworking of the vowels to match the 3-vowel Inuit system.) Likewise, if one does maintain a contact with Vinland ITTL, a better relationship with the Beothuk would have helped out immensely. In that case, Vinland/Markland would be a mere extension of Greenland. In such a case, it could work out.
 
You know, why are we still chasing phonetics and diaries when looking for hidden history? Isn't one good solid genetic study on Inuits going to tell us if there was any Norse survival past 1200 ce?
 
There's no evidence of hunger or starvation among the Greenland Norse so I doubt eating more fish would change their fate. It seems that they left mostly because it was a miserable place in the middle of nowhere with nothing to do but hunt seals. No evidence of starvation, disease, or conflict has been found. They had better economic prospects elsewhere so they left.

I read a book several years ago (I unfortunately cannot recall its name) that proposed that the Greenland Norse migrated en mass in the late 15th century using ships provided by an English merchant (who I also cannot recall right now) who left clues in the documentation of the time of a large chartered convoy sent far to the west, probably west of Iceland.

He theorizes that the merchant had offered the Greenlanders an opportunity to earn a better living elsewhere, if they agreed to work for him under contract, but something went wrong, and the entire convoy was lost at sea.
 
Thanks for that. And I guess its like too late to say sorry about the Vikings. If they'd converted to Islam instead of Christianity they'd probably still be around.

I doubt it. Not to mention Iceland and Greenland got a ton of their calories from alcohol, though I guess Islam's anti-alcohol rules could be waved if it's a matter of life and death like in many periods of Greenlandic and Icelandic history.
 
Thanks for that. And I guess its like too late to say sorry about the Vikings. If they'd converted to Islam instead of Christianity they'd probably still be around.

Why would Islam have raised their survival chances?

I doubt it. Not to mention Iceland and Greenland got a ton of their calories from alcohol, though I guess Islam's anti-alcohol rules could be waved if it's a matter of life and death like in many periods of Greenlandic and Icelandic history.

You can make the case (and many medieval Muslims did make the case) that the drinks popular in Northern Europe were OK by Muhammad, since they were not fermented grape juice or fermented date juice. Further, even with wine (of either fruit), the Koran does not specifically say that it is prohibited, but rather that it is sinful to consume and that wise men should avoid it. This gives some wriggle room and different cultures have taken a harder or softer line on the whole matter.

For example, on the Iranian plateau the coming of Islam did very little to restrain the local binge drinking culture and the Safavid Empire, which was founded by a brotherhood of religious fundamentalists, had as its first Shah and fundamentalist nut-in-chief a truly epic drunkard. (Yes, not a fan of Ismail I.)

fasquardon
 

Red Orm

Banned
Thanks for that. And I guess its like too late to say sorry about the Vikings. If they'd converted to Islam instead of Christianity they'd probably still be around.

Why would that be?

I doubt it. Not to mention Iceland and Greenland got a ton of their calories from alcohol, though I guess Islam's anti-alcohol rules could be waved if it's a matter of life and death like in many periods of Greenlandic and Icelandic history.

My experience of Islam and Muslims says that the whole "alcohol is forbidden" thing is followed about as closely as Christians follow "mixed fabrics are forbidden" or "premarital sex is forbidden", etc. It takes no kind of environmental pressure at all to waive the anti-alcohol rules.
 
Alcohol, Islam, Vikings, and Necessity: A Short Speech

If the Rus of Kiev had established Islam as their national religion, the consumption of alcohol would have been tolerated/ignored/hidden because when you are growing a world religion you make allowances for cultural differences, especially when the local bunch of warriors at hand are capable and, dare I say, "bad-ass." From the Rus we go up the Volga River in the manner of Ibn-Fadlan (if you haven't read "Eaters of the Dead," especially the original paperback with the creepy illustrations, do!) and we hit the Baltic. Think of the trade possibilities alone! Islam is a warriors' religion, introduces literacy, sensible legal systems that get rid of annoying feuds and succession crises. Think of a single Scandistan united under the Caliphate of Oslo. The scenario is entirely possible and chock full SAB's (Scary Ass Butterflies) if you're into that sort of thing, we're not above it, times being what they are...
 
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