Would Czechoslovakia have broken up without Communism?

CaliGuy

Banned
Had Czechoslovakia never went Communist (as in, if the 1948 Communist coup there was somehow prevented), would Czechoslovakia have still eventually broken up into the Czech Republic and Slovakia?

Or would it have remained a single country up to the present-day in this TL?
 
The sense I get from my ESL students, overwhelmingly Czech or Slovak, is that while the split wasn't necessarily inevitable nor wanted, it was better in the long run. Not sure how communism may or may not have impacted it outside of forcing it to remain together longer.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
The sense I get from my ESL students, overwhelmingly Czech or Slovak, is that while the split wasn't necessarily inevitable nor wanted, it was better in the long run. Not sure how communism may or may not have impacted it outside of forcing it to remain together longer.
The reason that I suspect that Communism might have something to do with this split is that multinational Communist countries in Europe have a tendency to break-up after the collapse of Communism.

Czechoslovakia was doomed after the Slovaks collaberated with the Germans.
To be fair, though, wasn't the Slovak collaboration with the Nazis essentially forced?
 
Czechoslovakia was doomed after the Slovaks collaberated with the Germans.
Bullshit. Slovaks were promised autonomy in 1918. Czechoslovakia was doomed when so called Czechoslovakism started to be pressed forward.
After all, it were not Slovak leader who refused to defend Czechoslovakia in 1938! Leader of Slovak People Party Hlinka before his death called for defense against Hitler and named Hitler for what he was. Slovak men mobilized without problems, get to their units and were prepared to fight for Czechoslovakia. After Prague was not able to defend Czechoslovakia (and make Czechoslovak ally France to do so) Czechoslovakia was doomed. Prague was not willing to defend even Slovakia against Hungary or Poland in 1938. That's when Czechoslovakia was doomed.
Now, why should really Slovaks be blamed for proclaiming their Slovak Republic in 1939 with Berlin help, while only few month ago France and Britain deal with Berlin over Czechoslovakia and Prague accepted that deal?

If I go even further. During WWII more Slovaks fought in Czechoslovak armies abroad then Czechs! Slovaks were only some 17% of population of Czechoslovakia but already Czechoslovak Division in France 1940 had around 50% of Slovaks. Slovak National Uprising in August-October 1944 was on same size if not bigger then Warsaw Uprising.

Did Slovak republic attack Poland along side Germany? It did. And it took back what Poland took in 1938. So you talk about it but not about 1938.
Did Slovakia took part in war against USSR? It did indeed. And actually small selected units did relatively well up to 1942. As all other eastern countries. Including Romania who got after France and Britain failed in their policy got into German sphere of influence.
Did Slovakia deported their Jewish population to resettlement camps (as they were told)? Indeed. And shame on one who voted for that. Same did Hungary already 1 year early, Bulgaria or Vichy France. Shame on them all.

But please at least get some of your facts together before you say why Czechoslovakia broke apart.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Bullshit. Slovaks were promised autonomy in 1918. Czechoslovakia was doomed when so called Czechoslovakism started to be pressed forward.
After all, it were not Slovak leader who refused to defend Czechoslovakia in 1938! Leader of Slovak People Party Hlinka before his death called for defense against Hitler and named Hitler for what he was. Slovak men mobilized without problems, get to their units and were prepared to fight for Czechoslovakia. After Prague was not able to defend Czechoslovakia (and make Czechoslovak ally France to do so) Czechoslovakia was doomed. Prague was not willing to defend even Slovakia against Hungary or Poland in 1938. That's when Czechoslovakia was doomed.
Now, why should really Slovaks be blamed for proclaiming their Slovak Republic in 1939 with Berlin help, while only few month ago France and Britain deal with Berlin over Czechoslovakia and Prague accepted that deal?

If I go even further. During WWII more Slovaks fought in Czechoslovak armies abroad then Czechs! Slovaks were only some 17% of population of Czechoslovakia but already Czechoslovak Division in France 1940 had around 50% of Slovaks. Slovak National Uprising in August-October 1944 was on same size if not bigger then Warsaw Uprising.

Did Slovak republic attack Poland along side Germany? It did. And it took back what Poland took in 1938. So you talk about it but not about 1938.
Did Slovakia took part in war against USSR? It did indeed. And actually small selected units did relatively well up to 1942. As all other eastern countries. Including Romania who got after France and Britain failed in their policy got into German sphere of influence.
Did Slovakia deported their Jewish population to resettlement camps (as they were told)? Indeed. And shame on one who voted for that. Same did Hungary already 1 year early, Bulgaria or Vichy France. Shame on them all.

But please at least get some of your facts together before you say why Czechoslovakia broke apart.
So, you think that, after the events of 1918 to 1945, Czechoslovakia was doomed even if it didn't have a Communist coup in 1948, correct?
 
The reason that I suspect that Communism might have something to do with this split is that multinational Communist countries in Europe have a tendency to break-up after the collapse of Communism.
Actually communist were one who were holding Czechoslovakia together.
Few days ago I read article of Czech historian. In his opinion if in 1968 Soviet tanks did't show up, Czechoslovakia would fall apart sooner then it happen OTL. Slovaks wanted their own state. More or less. or at least didn't want to be called Czechs every time they showed their Czechoslovak passport.


To be fair, though, wasn't the Slovak collaboration with the Nazis essentially forced?
I guess so. By un ability of France and Britain to defend single democracy in Central and Eastern Europe (which had its faults too though). By un ability of Prague to defend Slovakia. By greed of Poland at the time - huge part of Slovak nationalists were actually for some kind of union with catholic Poland. Their support base was destroyed after Poland annexed Slovak territories in late 1938.
And forced by their own dream of their own state. At the end it was Germany who was willing to guarantee it.
 

CaliGuy

Banned

Were you going to write something else here?

I guess so. By un ability of France and Britain to defend single democracy in Central and Eastern Europe (which had its faults too though). By un ability of Prague to defend Slovakia. By greed of Poland at the time - huge part of Slovak nationalists were actually for some kind of union with catholic Poland. Their support base was destroyed after Poland annexed Slovak territories in late 1938.
And forced by their own dream of their own state. At the end it was Germany who was willing to guarantee it.

Very interesting!

Also, out of curiosity--wouldn't a Polish-Slovakian union have been very Polish-dominated?
 
Were you going to write something else here?
Edited it. ;)

Very interesting!
Also, out of curiosity--wouldn't a Polish-Slovakian union have been very Polish-dominated?
I guess it would. Idealistic dream I would say. Poland had worst track of minorities rights before WWII then Czechoslovakia so I guess Slovak regions on border with Poland would be polonized. Basically that's what happened with rest of Slovak population after WWII. Many however choose to move to Czechoslovakia right after WWII due to attack of some terrorist groups who where trying to expel Slovak population. Few of them were hanged later by Communist regime in Poland.
 
Really? That’s interesting. Do you have a source for this? Was this interwar, post war or during the Cold War?
Shortly before war. In 1938 Poland totally discredited itself and in 1939 Bratislava was able to sell war against Poland even if not very popular as liberation war. Sources would be probably mostly in Slovak, Czech or Polish.
Basically Karol Sidor (he refused to declare indpendece on German request and later Germans requested his retirement from Slovak politics in 1939 - since then Ambassador in Vatican, died in Canada in 1953) was leader of propolish wing of HSLS. Basically they proposed Union with Poland or Slovak state under Polish protection.
 
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Unless we throw away a Republic and pick a Bohemian or Slovakian king.
How it would work. There was not nobility of Slovak ancestry high enough to be kings. In Czech lands? Not sure. Maybe. But nobility there was not very popular after 1918. And that would need to include Czech and Moravian lands in such Union I guess.
 
The sense I get from my ESL students, overwhelmingly Czech or Slovak, is that while the split wasn't necessarily inevitable nor wanted, it was better in the long run. Not sure how communism may or may not have impacted it outside of forcing it to remain together longer.
It forced Czechoslovakia stay together longer. If there was democratic Czechoslovakia after 1948 dissolution would eventually come.
However thinking about it. If Czechoslovakia was democratic country and member of NATO, Soviet threat could keep Czechoslovakia actually together till 1989 too.
Thinking about it even more. Maybe, just maybe Czechs and Slovaks could realize together they are stronger. But everything also depends how Slovaks would be treated - no, we were not oppressed. We were just getting pissed that while somebody abroad was talking about Czechoslovakia used short "Czech". Maybe different name of Republic would be needed. Like Central European Federation or something like that. ;)
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
So it seems to me that Communism cannot be definitively described as a factor making the split more likely.

However, Munich and it's aftermath can.

What about Czechoslovakia's odds of staying together if there never is a Hitler or German grab of Sudetenland at all after 1918?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
What about Czechoslovakia's odds of staying together if there never is a Hitler or German grab of Sudetenland at all after 1918?
Undoubtedly better. However, a lot might still depend on how the Slovaks are treated by the Czechoslovak government in this TL.
 
Soviet communism (and communism in general) looked at divisions in humanity as being based on economic class. Nationality was considered to be much less important (if at all) compared to economic class. Officially the USSR said all were equal, no Great Russianism to the head of the class. Of course the attitude of the general Russian towards other nationalities, Jews etc was pretty much unchanged from pre-revolution, but that to the side. After communism, the USSR fractured along ethnic lines, as did Yugoslavia after Tito/communism, and Czechoslovakia. Some consider all of this to be part of the evolving dissolution of multiethnic/multinational polities. This is not restricted to communist/post communist polities. Further discussion would be quite long and detailed.
 
The 1946 election showed that even before the Communist takeover of 1948 there was a big political difference between the Czech lands and Slovakia. (Or rather that the pre-war political division was persisting, even if the old Slovak People's Party had been banned.) In the Czech lands, the Communist Party was the largest single party; in Slovakia, the Slovak Democratic Party got 62 percent of the vote, compared to 30.3 percent for the Slovak Communists. https://books.google.com/books?id=AZZoTdLB4nwC&pg=PA174

Not that the Slovak Democrats advocated separation--but still they (or some successor party) were likely eventually to clash with any centralist government in Prague whether headed by the Communists or not.
 
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Ultimately, unless Czechoslovakia can develop either a sense of a Czechoslovak community not dominated by the Czechs or a real binational framework, I suspect it may be doomed to split.
 
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