Would Christianity Rise w/o Constantine?

This is revisiting a question that was sort of asked here about a decade ago now -- namely, by circa 310, how popular had Christianity really become in the empire? If Constantine had been defeated and killed at the Milvian Bridge in 312, would the religion still have been likely to eventually become the dominant faith in the Roman World? Would it still spread beyond Rome's influence (to the Kingdom of Axum, for example)? Would the roman authority (or "authorities", depending on how long it takes to unite the empire from the tetrarchy) eventually still be inclined to legalize and/or endorse the the church at some point?

That's the main issue of the thread -- and depending on the answer, the first or only part. If -- and only if -- it is determined that Christianity would still emerge as a major world religion in the near-ish term, we can ask a second question: How then, would history be different, if Constantine the Great not re-unified the Roman Empire?
 
- Christianity already large sect at 310s. Wikipedia says 10% of Roman Empire. It had hierarchy of bishops and influential supporters.
- Very Likely, Christianity just have t9 be supported by one of emperor. Even without Constantine, likely happen sometime in 4th century.
- Christianity already spread to Armenia. So it can spread without Imperial backing.
- Yes. Any authority would likely legitimize it at some point.

- I think its possible that Christianity would fracture first, becoming several faith that call themselves Christians, but with different doctrines and bishoporics.
- Also on longer time without Imperial backing, Christianity might have more successful competitor (Sol Invictus, Jewish, Mithra, Isis, Magna Matter) that have better chance of survival
 
- Christianity already large sect at 310s. Wikipedia says 10% of Roman Empire. It had hierarchy of bishops and influential supporters.
- Very Likely, Christianity just have t9 be supported by one of emperor. Even without Constantine, likely happen sometime in 4th century.
- Christianity already spread to Armenia. So it can spread without Imperial backing.
- Yes. Any authority would likely legitimize it at some point.
- I think its possible that Christianity would fracture first, becoming several faith that call themselves Christians, but with different doctrines and bishoporics.
Awesome. So would it be safe to say, then, that if the Roman World is ever again going be reunified under a reign of notable length by 310, it's going to be done so under a "Christian" Emperor (sort of, and of some sort, at least)? (Basically -- we can all agree Rome isn't getting a "pagan" version of Constantine with a PoD in the 310's, right?)

If so, that only really leaves two possibilities -- either (a) someone akin to Constantine the Great emerges eventually (reunifies the empire, ending the tetrarchy; makes Christianity the official state religion; stabilizes the regime with major moves like relocating the capital, disbanding the Praetorian Guard, etc); or (b), nobody emerges to end the division of the empire, and the Roman World enters an extended period of disunity. The latter would basically mean the periods when the Roman Empire was functionally unified in the fourth century* just don't happen -- and bear in mind that, before Constantine, Rome hasn't really been able to enjoy any extended period of rule by a single emperor (with the exception of Probus) sine the mid-second century.

Given that -- so long as we're all on board that Christianity still emerges as the leading religion in the Roman World** and much of beyond -- what does this mean for Roman Civilization as a whole?

*specifically 325 to 337 and 353 to 375 (notwithstanding about five months in the latter part of 394)
**the reason I'm insistent on this is that "Rome doesn't become Christian" can be done a lot of ways, and I'm actually more fascinated here by what the legacy of Constantine the Great was for Western Civilization more generally, not just as the gateway for the church
 
Honestly I would say it's a mixed situation because while the Christians were 10% of the population they were competing with other religions like Sol Invictus, Mithriadinism and other mystery cults, Christianity would be a big part of the empire? Yes, but without someone like Constantine doing stuff like making it the official religion, supporting sides in disputes and helping ecumenical councils happen and such the religion wouldn't have gotten to the size it did in the Empire. So the religion does grown but it's not overwhelming like OTL
 
Most likely still wins just 50-100 years later and with more compromises with both hellenism/greek philosophy and probably local sects getting more leeway since Rome would be more decayed. Someone once proposed that christianity without Constantine rises the way buddhism did in tibet, having to adjust more to the culture of the converts and taking overall longer.
 
Honestly I would say it's a mixed situation because while the Christians were 10% of the population they were competing with other religions like Sol Invictus, Mithriadinism and other mystery cults, Christianity would be a big part of the empire? Yes, but without someone like Constantine doing stuff like making it the official religion, supporting sides in disputes and helping ecumenical councils happen and such the religion wouldn't have gotten to the size it did in the Empire. So the religion does grown but it's not overwhelming like OTL
“Overwhelming” isn’t necessarily what we’re talking about. Think of it this way - - Christianity went from being about 10% of the Roman imperial population in 310 to being 55% less than four decades later. While we don’t have to see such a majority emerge that quickly, the question is whether such a majority would more or less inevitably emerge eventually. Are you saying that Mithriadinism or Sol Invictus could have managed that with a 312 PoD?

Alternatively, think of it this way - - Galerius had ended one of the last persecution of Christians with an Edict ofToleration in 311; and one of the past persecutors, Maximinus Daza, would probably still be defeated by Licinius, even if Maxentius defeated Constantine on the Milvian Bridge. Now, Constantinian propaganda aside, it’s thought that Licinius was actually pretty chill with the (sizable) Christian communities of the east, and may have even been a patron.

Now if the pagan Maxentius rules in the west, while the Christian-supporter Licinius rules in the east, then you’re still likely to see those most established Christian populations grow over the next generation in ways similar to the way they did OTL (even if their fellow faithful in places like Italy, Carthage, or Corduba continue to struggle). How history develops subsequently -- well, now there’s where it potentially gets interesting…
 
Honestly I would say it's a mixed situation because while the Christians were 10% of the population they were competing with other religions like Sol Invictus, Mithriadinism and other mystery cults, Christianity would be a big part of the empire? Yes, but without someone like Constantine doing stuff like making it the official religion, supporting sides in disputes and helping ecumenical councils happen and such the religion wouldn't have gotten to the size it did in the Empire. So the religion does grown but it's not overwhelming like OTL
And on that note, a reversal of an initial period of Christian dominance like how Buddhism fizzled out in the land of its birth after a Hindu revival or how Chinese Emperors turned on the Buddhist faith their predecessors had patronized would be more likely than whatever Julian the Apostate was doing IOTL.
 
So if we’re all on board for the basic idea of “Christianity still more or less emerges as the leading and/or dominant religion in the West”, then I want to ask the big question here:

How is history changed if Constantine fails to become the Great? That is to say, what if he’s defeated by one of his rivals in the 310’s (preferably by Maxentius, but we can alternately imagine Licinius and Valens beating him a few years later).
 
And on that note, a reversal of an initial period of Christian dominance like how Buddhism fizzled out in the land of its birth after a Hindu revival or how Chinese Emperors turned on the Buddhist faith their predecessors had patronized would be more likely than whatever Julian the Apostate was doing IOTL.
Heck, Christianity did slowly decline into a small minority in its own West Asian homeland as a result of the Arab conquests and the rise of Islam OTL.
 
like Sol Invictus, Mithriadinism and other mystery cults
Sol Invictus, Jewish, Mithra, Isis, Magna Matter
I dont think mystery cults would stand a chance at all

I mean, there's a reason why they were called that, they were intentionally intended to be restrictive and exclusive to keep the "unenlightened" non-members out, conversion outside of recruiting few like-minded individuals was the last thing they wanted

That said, without state endorsement and the eatabilishment of both a "official" christian canon and a christian dynasty its very possible Christianity as we know it could've been outmatched by a "reformed" pagan philosophy(like what Julian was going for), one of the many gnostic cults out there(granted, most suffered the same issue of mystery cults, but *some* actively pursued converting), another variant of Judaism(Hellenic Judaism was still very popular I believe) or something completely new(that may or may not take inspiration from Christianity) from a unexpected place like OTL Islam
 
I dont think mystery cults would stand a chance at all

I mean, there's a reason why they were called that, they were intentionally intended to be restrictive and exclusive to keep the "unenlightened" non-members out, conversion outside of recruiting few like-minded individuals was the last thing they wanted
To be fair, the faith Sol Invictus actually did manage to combine the mysteries with a mass appeal in a fashion similar to Christianity, which is why it had become such a major religion in the 3rd Century. That being said, my impression is that by the 310's, their opportunity to become "the" Roman faith had passed, with Roman people and institutions more likely to find solace and purpose in other faiths, like Christianity; Constantine's own conversion from worship of Sol to supporting the Christian faith attests to this.
That said, without state endorsement and the eatabilishment of both a "official" christian canon and a christian dynasty its very possible Christianity as we know it could've been outmatched by (a) a "reformed" pagan philosophy(like what Julian was going for), (b) one of the many gnostic cults out there(granted, most suffered the same issue of mystery cults, but *some* actively pursued converting), (c) another variant of Judaism(Hellenic Judaism was still very popular I believe) or (d) something completely new(that may or may not take inspiration from Christianity) from a unexpected place like OTL Islam
Well, (d) is kind of cheating -- it's basically just saying "Yeah Christianity might still rise, but something else also might crop up at some point, so who knows". If Christianity can become even the majority faith of the empire, or hell, just the majority in the wealthier eastern part of the empire, then that alone is going to give the religion some major momentum. And if it rides this momentum to become the dominant religion in the Western world, then that means the first question in the OP is answered affirmatively; saying "yeah, but some other religious movement could pop up and knock it back down a peg" after that just kind of misses the point.

As to the rest -- honestly, I really don't see that (a) has a real shot here. If anyone wants to make a case for Revived Hellenistic Paganism specifically, I'm willing to talk, but for the time being, color me skeptical. I suppose (c) has a somewhat better shot by comparison, but not by much -- I just think there's a fundamental limit to how far a religion with strict dietary restrictions and mandatory circumcision can get. Especially when you consider they're competing with a religion that worships the same god and claims the messiah has already come; honestly, did Jewish conversion actually seriously compete with Christianity in this period, when it comes to numbers?

Honestly, (b) seems like it would have the best bet; though in their case we know them mostly by those that were syncretic-Christian, so I'm not entirely sure they'd even count.
 
To be fair, the faith Sol Invictus actually did manage to combine the mysteries with a mass appeal in a fashion similar to Christianity, which is why it had become such a major religion in the 3rd Century. That being said, my impression is that by the 310's, their opportunity to become "the" Roman faith had passed
Good point, I guess Aurelius surviving could be a good POD for that even if he wasnt proselytizing
"Yeah Christianity might still rise, but something else also might crop up at some point, so who knows".
Im not saying that, Im saying I agree that something else rising was a possibility, just that I dont see it being a mystery cult
If anyone wants to make a case for Revived Hellenistic Paganism
I dont, religions rarely can be revived
However the majority of the roman population at that point was still pagan, period, so if the religion was reformed to counteract Christianity's growth it might have done just that
there's a fundamental limit to how far a religion with strict dietary restrictions and mandatory circumcision can get
I mean Christianity itself was just a jewish cult that dodged those, traditional Judaism certainly wouldnt have jumped on that trend but nothing stopping other "heresies" from popping up with the same stick
did Jewish conversion actually seriously compete with Christianity in this period, when it comes to numbers?
At this period specifically? Nope
Before the whole thing with Hadrian though it was doing fairly well, possibly having more converts even
It was the crackdown on the jews as a whole that slowed that down, but if a Emperor were to favour them like Christianity was favoured IOTL - which is a pretty big possibility, Julian tried to undermine Christianity by doing precisely this - then they could at very least become a rival
Plus Islam is at some points just as strict and that didnt stop them from being massively successful
 
Reforming paganism to match Christianity would just further the decline, and would lessen its appeal of different from and also being the traditional ways
 
And on that note, a reversal of an initial period of Christian dominance like how Buddhism fizzled out in the land of its birth after a Hindu revival or how Chinese Emperors turned on the Buddhist faith their predecessors had patronized would be more likely than whatever Julian the Apostate was doing IOTL.
Reforming paganism to match Christianity would just further the decline, and would lessen its appeal of different from and also being the traditional ways
- Hindu revival post-Buddhism create rather different religion that quite different from pre-Buddhist Hindu tradition. Shaivism and Vishnaism put different emphasis than "old" Hindu religion.
- "Reformed" paganism likely also very different from pre-Christian paganism. Identification of Jupiter with Sol Invictus or even raising some obscure / foreign god, different priestly hierarchy rather than municipal priesthood, charity modeled on Christian Church, etc.
- Julian "reformed" paganism is more likely to be successful than old paganism resurfaced.
- chinese Emperor persecution of Buddhism happen BEFORE Buddhism become big religion in China.
- better model might be Meiji era persecution of Buddhism and establishment of state Shinto.
 
Im not saying that, Im saying I agree that something else rising was a possibility
It's the idea that something else could come into being, rise to prominence, and then either (a) come to prominence before Christianity gets the chance or (b) displace Christianity after it has already come to prominence. With (a), I just don't "something new" coming out of the woodwork in this timeframe, seeing as the cults and faiths competing for power in this period tend to be centuries old. And with (b), well as I mentioned, that would effectively be beside the point, where the OP is concerned.
I dont, religions rarely can be revived. However the majority of the roman population at that point was still pagan, period, so if the religion was reformed to counteract Christianity's growth it might have done just that
Reforming paganism to match Christianity would just further the decline, and would lessen its appeal of different from and also being the traditional ways
Yeah, I'm not seeing it. The fact that "there are more pagans than Christians" doesn't, by itself, tell us much about the prospects for paganism's long term survival prospects. That said, I'll admit @kholieken gives some good examples on how suppression of a religion can come about centuries after it achieves a level of predominance, so we may come back to this.
I mean Christianity itself was just a jewish cult that dodged those, traditional Judaism certainly wouldnt have jumped on that trend but nothing stopping other "heresies" from popping up with the same shtick

Before the whole thing with Hadrian though it was doing fairly well, possibly having more converts even. It was the crackdown on the jews as a whole that slowed that down, but if a Emperor were to favour them like Christianity was favoured IOTL - which is a pretty big possibility, Julian tried to undermine Christianity by doing precisely this - then they could at very least become a rival
Meh, I suppose you could have an alternate Proselytizing Judaism emerge, and you might see Imperial authorities decide to support them over Christianity over a period of time. But honestly, if we're talking about sustained multi-generational effort, it's not entirely clear to me why they would do that, OTL example of Julian notwithstanding; what is to be gained in supporting "an alternate Jewish sect" with the specific goal of suppressing "another" when the latter is already so much more popular anyway?
Plus Islam is at some points just as strict and that didnt stop them from being massively successful
Islam had united a "nation" of tribes, such that said "nation" was able to conquer new territory, install themselves as the new elites, and thus give their new religion preferential treatment; whatever reservations the subjects of said territories had about their dietary restrictions paled in comparison to getting on with the new people in charge. Suffice to say, none of this is applicable to the religious landscape of Rome in the fourth and fifth centuries.
 
The mystery cults did genuinely have popular appeal though- there were different levels of initiation sure, but the Isaics at the very least held large popular festivals open to everyone, as well as having strict moral rules for its priesthood, so the argument that Christianity spread because pagan priests were just politicians while Christian leaders could provide a moral example doesn’t really work.

The fact that the Synagogue of Severus was late fourth century as well speaks to the existence of a number of Jews who weren’t completely hostile to the idea of mixing pagan iconography in their own religious spaces, so I don’t think the Sol Invictus claims to assimilation of all gods were super crazy- if you can get Yahweh, Zeus is nothing.

Really I think it’s the existence of a Jewish temple that would cripple Christianity- it doesn’t have to be Julian, but any emperor who decides to favour the Jews over Christians/ tries to return to the good old days of the empire could try it, and that would seriously undermine pretty much two centuries of Christian apologists.
 

Brunaburh

Kicked
I don't think the rise of proto-Orthodox Christianity is at all preordained without (or even with) Constantine. A move towards de facto monotheism seems to have been underway, but it didn't need to be proto-Orthodoxy. Different Christian sects, Manichaeism, Sol Invictus, mystery religions, Judaism, new Emperor cults, there was plenty of religious diversity and potential for other religions becoming official.

The change certainly doesn't need to be completed either, the Western Empire could easily have gone before the transition was completed, leaving a much less Roman structure in many areas.
 
By 310, I think the old religious status quo was a dead system walking; the Crisis of the Third Century had taken away most of its support, proving the traditional mores as utterly incapable to stop the chaos and leading many to find alternatives - the rise of Neoplatonism is in the same period and it proved a much more resilient rival to Christianity, who ended up incorporating it to a significant degree.
I think Christianity was the most likely winner, but by all means, there's space for it to lose and even perhaps, with exceptional leadership, for the Imperial cult to do the same incorporation of Neoplatonic thought as part of a restoration. Even with the bold opening declaration, people still had investiment in bits and pieces of the system that could be used to stave off decline and foster innovation: for example, It will still take a very long while (not to mention, a lot more defeat and chaos) before people start accepting the partition of the Empire. People will keep attempting it, and the one that briefly manages it will provide a brief window of opportunity for their religion to become the dominant one.
Still, the pressures that OTL showcased (economic downturn and rising pressure from more dangerous external groups) remain and are likely to eventually wreck the Empire in ways similar, but not identical, to OTL. Whoever wins the religious war may not have an Augustine able to help spin this political fall as the ultimate punishment for the old religion's sins, rather than the current favorite one's.
 
I don't think the rise of proto-Orthodox Christianity is at all preordained without (or even with) Constantine.
By "Proto-Orthodox", do you mean basically Non-gnostic Christianity? Because prior to the Arian Controversy (which basically takes us up to Constantine's intervention), your basic sects were the Judaizing Christians (who were more or less a "sect" of Judaism), the Docetists (who were more or less the syncretic result of gnosticism and christianity), and the Johnists, those Pauline Christians who were very clear that Jesus was "God made flesh" (though the full implications of that basic understanding would later prove a divisive issue).

Because if so, I think it's pretty safe to say that by 310, the Johnists were the majority of Christians and were where most growth was likely going to be post-legalization regardless of how the Wars of the Tetrarchy played out. Now, does that mean subsequent developments couldn't complicate this? Well...
A move towards de facto monotheism seems to have been underway, but it didn't need to be proto-Orthodoxy. Different Christian sects, Manichaeism, Sol Invictus, mystery religions, Judaism, new Emperor cults, there was plenty of religious diversity and potential for other religions becoming official.
Interesting point about monotheism. I'd still maintain that Sol Invictus had their shot in the 3rd Century, which is passing now; the fact is, by 310, the Roman authorities would just have an easier time uniting the country with Christianity than Sol Invictus, and they knew it. Manicheanism was always going to be too controversial -- ever since Diocletian decided it was a conspiracy by the Persians to destroy Roman-ness, it was going to have an even bigger uphill battle in gaining Roman acceptance than Christians did even at their lowest point, since they first had to convince them they weren't some kind of Spiritual Fifth Column for the Sasssinids.

And with Judaism -- yes, if the sufficiently powerful Roman authorities were so inclined, they could rebuild the Temple with the hope of undercutting the Christian community; but again, why would they do this? Unless Christianity had already become the major religion in the empire, and they, for whatever reason, wanted to take them back down a peg -- but of course, that's the kind of thing that only even becomes thinkable when the Roman Empire is already unified and the Authorities feel like their actually in a position to dictate Roman Religion to their subjects, rather than needing to work with the religious landscape as it exists to bring about some kind of civilizational unity. Which brings us to....
The change certainly doesn't need to be completed either, the Western Empire could easily have gone before the transition was completed, leaving a much less Roman structure in many areas.
Actually, that brings us to the interesting scenario I was thinking of -- let's say that the Eastern Empire embraces Christianity (becoming majority Christian by mid 4th Century), while the West, under pagan emperors, continues to defy christianization. Do we really think that, longer term, that Christianity would just stay in the east? I mean, I suppose it's technically possible; OTL saw parts of the western world take centuries to convert, with a lot of gains being lost to pagan invaders, to say nothing of the massive losses one Islam arrived on the scene.

But I don't think that's the more likely scenario -- and to get into why, I have to note that we're now getting to the question I had some hope of getting to -- even though it could only really become an interesting question in the event that “Christianity still more or less emerges as the leading and/or dominant religion in the West” becomes the broadly accepted position -- which is how is history changed if Constantine fails to become the Great? That is to say, what if he’s defeated by one of his rivals in the 310’s (preferably by Maxentius, but we can alternately imagine Licinius and Valens beating him a few years later).

Let's look at where the Roman World stood circa 310 CE -- Galerius and his subordinate (and soon to be successor) Licinius are in the strongest position, with Anatolia, Raetia, and everything in between under their belt; to their south and west are allies (or soon-to-be-allies), Maxentius in Italy, and Maximinus Daza in Egypt and Syria (the two would-be-emperors who incidentally would be the last to persecute christians); North Africa was controlled by Domitius Alexander; and in the west, controlling Britain, Gaul, and Hispania (interestingly, the "share" of the empire with some of the fewest Christians), was the son of Constantius, Constantine.

So let's say Constantine's army is defeated, and Maxentius can continue holding Italy, at least for the time being; let's also say Licinius, for his part, has decided to focus for the time being on beating Daza to his south, and securing the east. Who takes Gaul, Spain, and Britain in this scenario? Given that Maxentius's father, the former Western Emperor Maximian, was able to rebel against Constantine for a time around Masilla, I'd say having that city retaken is straightforward enough; from there, Maxentius could project his authority into Gaul, with Britain and Northern Hispanic likely not being too much issue once that's done. Baetica might prove to be a problem, given their sizable Christian community; honestly, the Christians in central Italy will be giving the self-proclaimed Western Emperor enough headaches in that respect. Alternatively, you could see Gaul, Spain, and Britain proving to be too unwieldy for Italia to govern; though in that case, I'd think the Eastern Empire would have even more trouble in that case, with any re-conquest of Italy only doing little to bring the rest of the west into line.

But what about longer term? Well, to get the elephant in the room out of the way -- I think that, even if there's no full unification of the Roman Empire for at least another century, a Christian East would serve as a powerful source of support for the grassroots growth of Christianity in western provinces. Now, that doesn't mean the future re-conquest would be smooth sailing -- to start, there are those Germans and Goths to worry about, which is only going to become more of a headache starting in the last quarter of the 4th Century when the Huns start pushing people off the Pontic plains.

Been typing for a bit; should look at the latest comment:
for example, It will still take a very long while (not to mention, a lot more defeat and chaos) before people start accepting the partition of the Empire. People will keep attempting it, and the one that briefly manages it will provide a brief window of opportunity for their religion to become the dominant one. Still, the pressures that OTL showcased (economic downturn and rising pressure from more dangerous external groups) remain and are likely to eventually wreck the Empire in ways similar, but not identical, to OTL.
See, the way I see it, the Partition of the Empire has already happened -- nobody prior to Constantine winning the Tetrarchy Wars (with the sole exception of Probus) had managed to solely govern the empire for any meaningful length of time since 249 (which, incidentally, was around the time of Rome's millennial celebrations, 247); and the closest thing to stability Rome knew of for nearly the past century was the period of split rule under Diocletian and Maximian.

The point being, Constantine was the exception -- he managed to unify the empire under his rule. And even then -- he then split it for a period between his sons, and it was the last one living who managed to unify it again for a time when he went to war against the usurper of his last surviving brother, which is how he was able to leave a united empire for his cousin, Julian. But even then -- when Valentinian pickled up the pieces from Julian's death in Persia and Jovian's quick death thereafter, he took one look at the state the empire was in, and was like "Yeah, there's no way one man can rule all this", before taking a page from Diocletian's book, and splitting the empire with his brother.

Looked at in that context, I wouldn't be too sure that the unification of the Roman World under a New Augustus is necessarily an inevitability, especially if we're only talking about the Fourth Century.
By 310, I think the old religious status quo was a dead system walking; the Crisis of the Third Century had taken away most of its support, proving the traditional mores as utterly incapable to stop the chaos and leading many to find alternatives - the rise of Neoplatonism is in the same period and it proved a much more resilient rival to Christianity, who ended up incorporating it to a significant degree. I think Christianity was the most likely winner...
This much, absolutely agree with.
...but by all means, there's space for it to lose and even perhaps, with exceptional leadership, for the Imperial cult to do the same incorporation of Neoplatonic thought as part of a restoration. Even with the bold opening declaration, people still had investiment in bits and pieces of the system that could be used to stave off decline and foster innovation:
I'm certainly not going to say this couldn't happen, but I don't know if it's the more likely scenario than Roman authorities just deciding to let Christianity become popular.
Whoever wins the religious war may not have an Augustine able to help spin this political fall as the ultimate punishment for the old religion's sins, rather than the current favorite one's.
Now this is something I hadn't considered. Might be worth revisiting.
 
Sol Invictus was never monotheistic. I don't know where the idea comes from. It simply placed Helios-Apollo above the rest of the Gods. Selene-Artemis was extremely well worshipped and followed in the Cult of Sol Invictus for being the Sun's sister as well, for example, and Neptune-Poseidon was considered the earthly image to Sol Invictus.
 
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