Would Chiang Kai-shek be willing to send Chinese troops to Europe?

ReenX

Banned
Provided that British focus on Asia in 1940 and provide Chiang with direct British aid, in weapons, officers and combating Japanese navy in the Pacific, provided that mainland is clear of Japanese by 1942, would Chiang be willing to send armed Chinese troops to fight Germans in the west under British?
 

nbcman

Donor
If the British were secure enough in Europe to send enough weapons to arm hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers and to fight the IJN in the Pacific, there would be no need for Chinese troops in Europe.
 

ReenX

Banned
If the British were secure enough in Europe to send enough weapons to arm hundreds of thousands of Chinese soldiers and to fight the IJN in the Pacific, there would be no need for Chinese troops in Europe.

More like millions.

With royal navy and win in the battle of Britain I see no reason for British to rush into anything, they can wait and let others bleed for them
 
Provided that British focus on Asia in 1940 and provide Chiang with direct British aid, in weapons, officers and combating Japanese navy in the Pacific, provided that mainland is clear of Japanese by 1942, would Chiang be willing to send armed Chinese troops to fight Germans in the west under British?

Churchill is gonna be like: "You know what would be the best strategic decision with the Germans flying above London every night and the Italians trying to seize the Suez Canal and block our connection with India? To help the Chinese beat the Japanese. It's not like they will seize our fortresses of Hong Kong and Singapore. The US would enter the war to save our bacon and then we would ship across the world critical Chinese troops, which we would probably first use to get back the Middle East and then land them in France, where Hitler left our islands in peace so we could defeat those bloody Japanese. It's not like he would have wanted to catch us off-guard or nuke our cities since we we're too busy fighting the bloody Japs to bomb them to submission. This is surely the winning war strategy."
 

ReenX

Banned
Churchill is gonna be like: "You know what would be the best strategic decision with the Germans flying above London every night and the Italians trying to seize the Suez Canal and block our connection with India? To help the Chinese beat the Japanese. It's not like they will seize our fortresses of Hong Kong and Singapore. The US would enter the war to save our bacon and then we would ship across the world critical Chinese troops, which we would probably first use to get back the Middle East and then land them in France, where Hitler left our islands in peace so we could defeat those bloody Japanese. It's not like he would have wanted to catch us off-guard or nuke our cities since we we're too busy fighting the bloody Japs to bomb them to submission. This is surely the winning war strategy."

As it were they tried to fight on every front instead of using Royal Navy to ensure local superiority on a designated front. That the Africa campaign lasted for almost 3 years is a disgrace.
But admitedly, I wrote too shortly, and thus its possible to misunderstand.

This proposal understands that allies overwhelm and win the North African campaign quickly, spring-summer of 41 at latest. While the Germans are bussy brawling with the Soviets I see no reason why several divisions and officer cadre couldn't be shipped over to China, alongside weapons convoys and fighter pilots to push the Japanese out of mainland Asia, which could provide manpower needed to challenge the Germans, which Brits were lacking. In the process of waging war as they did already, they lost the empire. They lost Singapore, Hong Kong, East Indies, brawled in Burma inconclusively, while fighting in North Africa, sending officers to France, Balkans and other regions, wasting thousands of lives on bomber raids that led to nothing.

This is simple a thought excercise.

So for the sake of the topic, if the British did this, could Chiang be trusted to deliver on his part? Or would he refuse once China is freed and sit on his gains, with British unable to push him to do anything?
 

Deleted member 1487

Provided that British focus on Asia in 1940 and provide Chiang with direct British aid, in weapons, officers and combating Japanese navy in the Pacific, provided that mainland is clear of Japanese by 1942, would Chiang be willing to send armed Chinese troops to fight Germans in the west under British?
Nope. He had issues to deal with at home, like the Communists and rebuilding and uniting the country. In WW1 China sent people because China was in a vastly different position compared to the 1940s. It is certainly possible to see Chiang allowing Chinese to sign up for service or work abroad, but I cannot imagine and expeditionary corps sent anywhere.
 
As it were they tried to fight on every front instead of using Royal Navy to ensure local superiority on a designated front. That the Africa campaign lasted for almost 3 years is a disgrace.
But admitedly, I wrote too shortly, and thus its possible to misunderstand.

This proposal understands that allies overwhelm and win the North African campaign quickly, spring-summer of 41 at latest. While the Germans are bussy brawling with the Soviets I see no reason why several divisions and officer cadre couldn't be shipped over to China, alongside weapons convoys and fighter pilots to push the Japanese out of mainland Asia, which could provide manpower needed to challenge the Germans, which Brits were lacking. In the process of waging war as they did already, they lost the empire. They lost Singapore, Hong Kong, East Indies, brawled in Burma inconclusively, while fighting in North Africa, sending officers to France, Balkans and other regions, wasting thousands of lives on bomber raids that led to nothing.

This is simple a thought excercise.

So for the sake of the topic, if the British did this, could Chiang be trusted to deliver on his part? Or would he refuse once China is freed and sit on his gains, with British unable to push him to do anything?

Nope. He had issues to deal with at home, like the Communists and rebuilding and uniting the country. In WW1 China sent people because China was in a vastly different position compared to the 1940s. It is certainly possible to see Chiang allowing Chinese to sign up for service or work abroad, but I cannot imagine and expeditionary corps sent anywhere.

Actually, China sent only a labour corp, not an expeditionary force in WWI. The British, even after winning in North Africa, would not move to China because they're absence in Europe could lead to either a Nazi victory or a Soviet takeover of Europe, both harmful to they're interests. Plus that Stalin kept insisting about the opening of a second front and the Allies decision to let him deal with Hitler alone might even push him to a separate peace. Also, manpower was the least problem of the United Chinese Front as they outnumbered the Japanese by more than 4 to 1. They could maybe sent some Shermans, some Churchills and focus they're B-17s and later B-29s raids on the Chinese front. Also, as @wiking said, Chang had some unresolved scores with Mao and while they're settlement could be postponed by the Soviet's need for the Western Allies to finish Hitler what would the Chinese gain by dying in Italy, France and Germany? You also have to consider that Chang was anti-imperialist and would not want his soldiers to be the "Westerners lambs for slaughter", especially as he already had a permanent seat secured in the future UN Security Council, so what could he gain more? Also, you have to consider that in WWI Japan didn't send troops to the Western Front for the same reason.
 

ReenX

Banned
Actually, China sent only a labour corp, not an expeditionary force in WWI. The British, even after winning in North Africa, would not move to China because they're absence in Europe could lead to either a Nazi victory or a Soviet takeover of Europe, both harmful to they're interests. Plus that Stalin kept insisting about the opening of a second front and the Allies decision to let him deal with Hitler alone might even push him to a separate peace. Also, manpower was the least problem of the United Chinese Front as they outnumbered the Japanese by more than 4 to 1. They could maybe sent some Shermans, some Churchills and focus they're B-17s and later B-29s raids on the Chinese front. Also, as @wiking said, Chang had some unresolved scores with Mao and while they're settlement could be postponed by the Soviet's need for the Western Allies to finish Hitler what would the Chinese gain by dying in Italy, France and Germany? You also have to consider that Chang was anti-imperialist and would not want his soldiers to be the "Westerners lambs for slaughter", especially as he already had a permanent seat secured in the future UN Security Council, so what could he gain more? Also, you have to consider that in WWI Japan didn't send troops to the Western Front for the same reason.

Chiang would gain weapons, training and trained officers, decent ammount of armor, aircraft and naval support as well as clearing preventing free movement of Japanese navy. All that in exchange for future support, a million or two soldiers sent to Europe. He needn't send all his troops at all, nor is it expected. By 1940 nationalists had 3 million soldiers and ended the war with almost 5 million while suffering 3.25 million cassualties while other estimates range in up to 10 million military cassualties post 1937.

With British support a large part of those losses could have been avoided.
 
Chiang would gain weapons, training and trained officers, decent ammount of armor, aircraft and naval support as well as clearing preventing free movement of Japanese navy. All that in exchange for future support, a million or two soldiers sent to Europe. He needn't send all his troops at all, nor is it expected. By 1940 nationalists had 3 million soldiers and ended the war with almost 5 million while suffering 3.25 million cassualties while other estimates range in up to 10 million military cassualties post 1937.

With British support a large part of those losses could have been avoided.

All of whom I'm sure would be just ECSTATIC to be told that they're being dragged away from protecting their homeland and families (The reason they were resigned to conscription in the first place), to be sent half-way across the world to fight for the "foreign devils" against other forgien devils. How is Chiang going to avoid not only mass desertation, but the lose of support from his officers/Chinese domestic power-players?

Remember: his long term dominance over China was by no means assured. He needs the loyalty of the local elite/warlords, who aren't likely to go along with the plan, especially since they can win local power/goodwill by opposing him.
 

ReenX

Banned
All of whom I'm sure would be just ECSTATIC to be told that they're being dragged away from protecting their homeland and families (The reason they were resigned to conscription in the first place), to be sent half-way across the world to fight for the "foreign devils" against other forgien devils. How is Chiang going to avoid not only mass desertation, but the lose of support from his officers/Chinese domestic power-players?

Remember: his long term dominance over China was by no means assured. He needs the loyalty of the local elite/warlords, who aren't likely to go along with the plan, especially since they can win local power/goodwill by opposing him.

By telling them that they aren't helping a foreign devil, they are helping a people who came in their hour of need when they didn't have to and helped them drive out an overwhelming invader
 
By telling them that they aren't helping a foreign devil, they are helping a people who came in their hour of need when they didn't have to and helped them drive out an overwhelming invader

... Yah, I don't think you have a clear grasp on the mindset of the Chinese peasant (both in general and their perception of forgieners), the dire situation of the destruction/lawlessness of China in the era, and just how shakey Chiang's national coalition, to say nothing of his position at the head of it, was. This would never fly
 

ReenX

Banned
... Yah, I don't think you have a clear grasp on the mindset of the Chinese peasant (both in general and their perception of forgieners), the dire situation of the destruction/lawlessness of China in the era, and just how shakey Chiang's national coalition, to say nothing of his position at the head of it, was. This would never fly

And thats what I wanted to know :)
 
IIRC, Churchill and the Brits in general thought that the Chinese were irredeemably poor soldiers and corrupt, so they would probably not see Chinese troops in Europe as much help.
 
Unless you could contrive a situation in which the Sino-Japanese War were resolved before Hitler fell, and Mao's followers were stamped out, Chiang wouldn't feel secure enough to send people anywhere else. And even then, he'd feel little obligation or incentive to do it.
 

nbcman

Donor
The Chinese have a long series of grievances with the British going to the First Opium War as well as being disregarded by Britain and the Western countries after WW1 (May Fourth Movement). The Chinese as a people don't forget past injustices.
 
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