Would Brazil be able to keep Portugal?

Could you please elaborate? I don't see what circumstances you are referring.
in the mid 1800s the anti-revolutionary alliance breaks down so the Brazilian monarchs won't be able to count on continental allies putting down a Portuguese revolution for them, and at midcentury moving an army of their own over to Portugal to do the fighting themselves would be quite the feat.
 
in the mid 1800s the anti-revolutionary alliance breaks down so the Brazilian monarchs won't be able to count on continental allies putting down a Portuguese revolution for them, and at midcentury moving an army of their own over to Portugal to do the fighting themselves would be quite the feat.
Makes sense. However, there are some circumstances I think could help Brazil securing the region. Example: if there's a member of the royal family acting as a regent (one who doesn't try to get the throne to himself and who can act as a mediator between Portugal and Brazil), or/and if they keep a good relationship with Britain.
 
If there isn't a Portuguese revolution around the time when it happened IOTL, the issue of the opening of the ports will just die. Assuming a competent and non-repressive administration in the kingdom of Portugal it's unlikely that a revolution would happen at all, unless another issue emerges that divides the elites on both sides of the Atlantic...
 
I imagine if there were some sort of revolution in the mid XIX century the great powers, namely Britain and France would try to impose a new monarch in Portugal. This could either be a scion of the Portuguese royal house or more than likely they will try to install a German prince from one of the minor Catholic families, such as Hohenzollern-Sigmaringen. That seemed to be de rigeur at the time, just look at Belgium, Greece, Romania, and Bulgaria.
 
As long as the capital remains in Lisbon, I don't see why Portugal would break up from Brazil, regardless how big its former colony will have became. Capitals don't vote/fight for losing their hinterlands.
 
Pedro I/IV was an admirer of Napoleon and had long wanted to assume the title of Emperor. Being fairly liberal the most ideal title would be to adopt the title "Emperor of the Portuguese". This would be like Napoleon's Emperor of the French, or Louis-Philippe's "King of the French". Also, the rulers of Belgium adopted "King of the Belgians" as did those of Greece "King of the Hellenes" for their new kingdoms. Official documents would refer to the "Portuguese Empire". They would of course retain the title of King of Portugal, Brazil and the Algarves etc. Many Brazilian intellectuals had argued in the early 1820s that their pátria (fatherland) was composed of various parts of territory around the globe united in the person of the king, so this new title would be more appropriate. This was also when the term "overseas province" was first used to describe the other territories of the empire. The idea was despite the king's subjects throughout the disparate geographic were united. Meanwhile, Portugal retained a special place as "the cradle of the nation" from which a global empire was born. As a result, the "Kingdom of Portugal" and "Kingdom of Brazil" would be constituent parts of a larger "Portuguese Empire".

One of the complaints that the Portuguese elites had during the 1808-1821 period was that the length of time it took to send requests to the king in Rio de Janeiro took too long. Salvador da Bahia would have probably been a better choice as the imperial seat, but Rio de Janeiro was much more prominent as it was near the economic heart of Brazil., The Kingdom of Portugal like the provinces of Brazil will have to have its own assembly and essentially functioning as any of the provinces of Brazil did with its own autonomous legislature in Lisbon. However, being a kingdom it would be ruled by a "Regent" rather than a governor, and be directly responsible to the Emperor/King rather than Rio de Janeiro.

With Brazil being dominant in Angola the establishment of a transcontinental empire linking it to the possessions in East Africa would be accomplished with much greater ease. Also, its status as a penal colony means that it will get a large amount of convicts from Brazil past the 1820s. Eventually, Angola would be elevated to the status of a "kingdom" within the Portuguese Empire. In 1886, the name Angola was used to refer to this territory, so I imagine it would be the most appropriate here. Lord of Guinea was another title of the Portuguese Crown. Perhaps a Kingdoms of Guinea and Dahomey can emerge. It might also be populated with more liberated slaves, and have a stronger creole component, much like Sierra Leone.

I don't see Madagascar becoming Portuguese as the French were already dominant there. The same with Celebes (Sulawesi) or Moluccas where the Dutch had an older presence. If there is a Emperor/King whom is as ambitious as Leopold II of Belgium, New Guinea or even Cochin China is possible, but I imagine they will focus on Africa. Portugal's presence in Moçâmedes was founded in 1840 by settlers from Pernambuco. A more likely expansion would be into present-day Namibia, as Portugal's claim went down to Cape Frio, but this was ceded to Germany in 1885 along with the territory south of Kilwa in present-day Tanzania. Additionally, they will move to reestablish a claim to Cabinda before 1885, as well as a claim over the territories that had been part of the Kingdom of the Kongo along with the territories of the Lunda people that extend into the present-day Congo.
Getting into the name issue; I think it is likely that this union will adopt the name of Lusitania and be known as the Lusitanian Empire, Dom Pedro I / IV could have adopted the name of Emperor of the Lusitans.

The name Empire of Lusitania or Lusitanian Empire would be a better name for the symbolism of this new union, while a new name different from the old name '' portuguese empire '' represented a new beginning for Brazil, now elevating it to the united kingdom status with portugal; and at the same time the name '' Lusitania '' would still show the presence of the old regime for Portugal, since it was adopting the old name of Portugal.
 
Getting into the name issue; I think it is likely that this union will adopt the name of Lusitania and be known as the Lusitanian Empire, Dom Pedro I / IV could have adopted the name of Emperor of the Lusitans.

The name Empire of Lusitania or Lusitanian Empire would be a better name for the symbolism of this new union, while a new name different from the old name '' portuguese empire '' represented a new beginning for Brazil, now elevating it to the united kingdom status with portugal; and at the same time the name '' Lusitania '' would still show the presence of the old regime for Portugal, since it was adopting the old name of Portugal.
Wouldn't "Portugal-Brazil" be more likely, as Austria-Hungary? Lusitania = Portugal, so Brazil would be erased out just after being elevated to the United Kingdom status.
 
Wouldn't "Portugal-Brazil" be more likely, as Austria-Hungary? Lusitania = Portugal, so Brazil would be erased out just after being elevated to the United Kingdom status.
there massive difference, Austria and Hungary were to different cultures all together, Lusitania means the common Lusophone heritage
 
Wouldn't "Portugal-Brazil" be more likely, as Austria-Hungary? Lusitania = Portugal, so Brazil would be erased out just after being elevated to the United Kingdom status.
Remember that Brazilian identity in this world was developed differently, in our world, Brazil, after independence, distanced itself from Portuguese identity and created its own culture; In this world, Brazilian culture is part of a larger culture, the culture of the Lusitanian world, a nation that spans all continents.

And for Brazil it would be good to have the name of Lusitania so that Portugal and European nations, recognize this new regime as the continuation of the Portuguese empire.


I think it would look like the name "British Empire".
Within the British empire there are the domains of autralia, canada and etc. but they are part of the British Empire.

Then we would have the Lusitanian empire and within the empire we would have the kingdom of brazil, the kingdom of portugal and its colonial territories

For the world this nation would be called Lusitania, but within the Lusitanian Empire there would be the kingdoms of Brazil and Portugal.
 
Last edited:
Top