Would American interests have been better served by keeping the British Empire together after WW2?

In OTL, the US worked diplomatically to move the world to a post-colonial world, pushing the European colonial powers to give up their colonies. This was most successful with Britain, who had drawn closer to the US orbit than France, Portugal etc.

The US did this partially for ideological reasons and partially because they viewed it as opening up former colonies to their influence. Since the new millenium, however, American influence has ebbed away from these places, and the world has moved to be more multipolar, with stronger Chinese and Russian influence everywhere.

What if the US had instead kept Britain as a much more powerful empire, while still secondary to the US. Presumably this could be done by working hard to keep British influence in Africa and South East Asia, while accepting the Indian subcontinent was a goner. With a strong Britain, the American-British alliance would likely have kept Russian and Chinese power in check more, right?
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
The British Empire, with the exception of the settler colonies, was a for-profit empire that existed to secure British commercial and financial interests. The British themselves dissolved it the moment they realized it was unprofitable. Nothing short of America paying Britain hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep the empire would change their minds.
 
The British Empire was beyond preservation, regardless of whether that would have served American interests or not. India wasn't simply 'The Jewel in the Crown,' it was the keystone. British influence in South East Asia, and for that matter in East Africa and the Middle East was ultimately dependent upon the subcontinent. Once India is gone, the only question is how much blood and treasure the UK is prepared to spend before it acknowledges it can't hold the Empire.

Canada and Australia were already entering America's orbit before World War II. South Africa is on its way out of the British sphere.

Nigeria would be a nightmare of blood to try and hold against its will.

New Zealand is more economically dependent upon the UK than the other settler colonies, but it's hardly the basis of being a great power.


No, the Empire was gone, no matter how many nostalgic timelines get written on this place that try and find the perfect formula for keeping the map red.
 
The British Empire, with the exception of the settler colonies, was a for-profit empire that existed to secure British commercial and financial interests. The British themselves dissolved it the moment they realized it was unprofitable. Nothing short of America paying Britain hundreds of billions of dollars a year to keep the empire would change their minds.

I mean, the US spent hundreds of billions to fight the Cold War, including crazy levels of military support to keep random African countries from the USSR.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
I mean, the US spent hundreds of billions to fight the Cold War, including crazy levels of military support to keep random African countries from the USSR.
Find me a year during the Cold War in which the US foreign aid budget was several hundred billion dollars.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Right. Because the Vietnam (and neighboring Indochinese states) War wasn't Cold War spending.
Spending money on the American military is far more politically acceptable than throwing hundreds of billions of dollars at a foreign empire and hundreds of millions of dollars rigging British elections so Tories stay in power forever.
 
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It would have to rebrand itself somewhat. Empire stuff just doesn’t sound good to Americans and is good propaganda for Soviets.

A commonwealth with uniformed military and economic system is possible. I think the Brits could pull that off with the white dominions at least. It isn’t a empire anymore but more like a EU but scattered across the planet. It’s mutual international cooperation not a empire would have to be depiction of it.

For example, it could be British, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, and South Africa at first. Maybe Caribbean holdings. Ireland could join later in too. Other members could be Rhodesia, Singapore, Hong Kong, or more loyalist former colonies.

Everyone has its own political system domestically and have a British version of EU parliament. All commonwealth also likely retain more ceremonial titles. The bigger and non white ones still likely see empire and never join commonwealth.

The commonwealth could just have stuff like open border, no trade barriers, easy immigration between themselves, and joint defense.

I see the Brits actually liking commonwealth more. Former dominions likely can work with Brits more cordial and mutually then France especially in long run. It also helps solve many problems.

If for example Ireland joined the commonwealth for economic benefits and ties that can be used to ease tensions in Northern Ireland and as propaganda tool against ira. It also can lead to Ireland itself helping more at calming tensions there. If they join commonwealth and if brits are subtle about it which they often are former unionist and loyalist descendants who left Irish republic after independence could move back in republic. Maybe a part of a “good faith” agreement. They are just given duel Irish and British citizenships if they choose too. This makes resettling there easy and tighten trade between two.

Ireland might join because of location and trade with commonwealth members. Most of its more current immigrants are in Canada and British isles. There is also Northern Ireland. They also have people in Australia too. This is more practical and natural move even if they don’t join until EU is around. Ireland likely picks the commonwealth over EU because that would make way more sense.

Africa will be a more grey and unpleasant matter. It does give commonwealth more racial parallels with US. The Anglo Whites in South Africa during 60s at odds with Afrikaans over status of Africans and non whites. Either won’t majority rule but white English speaking South African want a more Rhodesia system over apartheid one. Also not all Africans can causally leave South Africa or Rhodesia yet like whites can. If commonwealth is as big as I describe and has open borders with each other that helps both regimes in Africa gaining more white residents. The Indians, Asians, and mix people often being given equality first.

Letting in skill labor from developing world and former colonies will help them. Immigrants from former colonies that failed can become more pro commonwealth if its doing well. India still gains independence but that does not mean they don’t try to keep more ties with India. I think propping one giant India might help them in long run. India has shown much more willingness to westernized and work with west then Pakistan or even Bangladesh. No Pakistan is one less ally for China and less distractions for India once they stabilize. Maybe US and UK agree to expand Marshall plan to unified greater India as a way to contain communism especially when it starts looking China will go red.

Portugal Empire would have to survive to help them especially in Africa but with full British help and a more passive US they could keep its colonies and actually adopt a more commonwealth type of system like the Brits did once they start to reform and become more democratic. Portugal is also additional help against China over port cities. Portugal would stabilize borders in Africa(less places for partisans or Soviet aid to come from).

During Congo Crisis brits help prop government in Katanga. They can’t keep every colony or prop every failing colonial regime. They have to pick who to help carefully and know when to pull out and hopefully prop up regime made up of former loyalist. One option is Arab/Muslim kingdom off the coast of Tanzania. This becoming like a mix of Dubai and Singapore downline.

They could maybe keep all of Malaysia with Singapore to by playing more favoritisms towards Chinese there. After nationalist start falling in China all brits have to do to make Malaysia majority Chinese is to let many fleeing the communist in as “refugees”(many are but many are not. They just want anti communist Chinese loyal or thankful to them somewhat). Malaysia on mainland and islands already have a native Chinese population that was near majority in many places.

They would be anti communist which helps with getting US on board with it. They would hate communist China. They would not want to live under Muslim rule country and like Hong Kong and Singapore they develop a positive view of brits. Malaysia still given independence but under a Chinese majority government. They also have Singapore and all of former British Malaysia(the Brits screwed Muslims here hard in favor of Chinese there). More Chinese can also move in from Indonesia later on. Malaysia could become a Asian tiger economy and be first Asian majority country to join commonwealth but decades down the line(90s) that isn’t a city state. Hong Kong could be given a special city state status and be part of commonwealth who it is dependent on economically. They are independent with its own government so China invading it or threatening a democratic nation will make them look aggressive and see more international countries turn against them. Hong Kong could be on board with this 100 percent and China Can’t do shit unless they want a war over it which US would be on Hong Kong side.

Suez Crisis going to give UK trouble with Americans. Winning this is a major strategic, political, and symbolic victory but they need to bullshit Americans hard and as long as possible. Hopefully distract or bait them with other world issues or leverage them somehow.

The British controlling Suez is big. They could argue them controlling Suez is similar to Americans in Panama Canal. They would have to give Americans everything they want trade wise to Suez and maybe even give them a base within the Suez Canal Zone. The Soviets are pissed but American agreeing is all they need. France not invading with Brits is preferable here. The British need to come off as least imperialist as possible. The French in all honesty don’t help in that. British should invade with help of Israel. Give them Sinai and take Suez directly. Reinstalled the king if possible. Supporting monarchs would help them. Support kingdoms in Libya and Arab world. This would actually work well with US interest in region. The Brits often did same exact shit as US relating to trade and oil with Muslim world in otl especially gulf region. The shah staying in power as British ally and trade partner is helpful. This indirectly screws China even more in long run because all these conservative pro British/US monarchs might now be able to be rallied together in cutting off or lowering oil trade from China in favor of them.

A schism between US and UK could happen at multiple points but I think it would be way less extreme then Sino Soviet split. More of coming to a point of “conflicting interests or goals” but both still agree on a lot of stuff. The British and commonwealth after recovering from ww2 economically could have its footing again and weathered a lot of post war decolonization era. It would require a lot of luck and skill but not impossible. Propaganda and image are important during Cold War especially with growth of mass but limited media(you had like 6 channels). So brits and commonwealth need to play on that. They already had shared media in otl.

The commonwealth could be British and Anglo Saxon “born again” type of movement after ww2. The time of imperialism has past but “international cooperation and globalization” is way of future. The Brits still bit shaken from war look more away from Europe then otl.

Instead of working with Europe they actually go full on US and overseas(trade with dominions and former empire) after world war 2. The British are helping Americans project and build trade ties within its former empire way more so then otl but at the cost of leaving European affairs almost completely outside of Mediterranean. The French are likely given more of military burden in Europe. They have to cater or appeal to US interests more then European ones.

Suez Crisis shows the British European biases somewhat. They included the French in the invasion plans and goals for Egypt much more so then Americans. That was just straight up dumb on there part. You included a country that you and US liberated a decade ago over unmistakable non communist superpower. Both of your countries also were still getting aid from US to for rebuilding. The Brits might have got way more out of crisis if they included Americans in on it and not French at all. US government isn’t going to trust Brits military wise if they do shit like this. They can’t have anyone questioning their interest and goals within its own bloc especially this early on. Later on brits could push back more especially after Cold War.

The French doing better and retaining more of its empire helps Brits here. The French being forced to cave on its colony in Indochina by US and Brits right after ww2 might upset hell out of them but help them in long run retain more. Basically US, UK, and France(after bitterly agreeing) install a pro western government with many former colonial loyalist. Chinese refugees and immigrants are also let in like Malaysia after it falls to communist(China has plenty of people to have mass migrations from. It’s actually somewhat surprising it was not more common in otl). This is more anti-communist. They could work well with conservative pro western republic in Indochina. This is other place that could get Marshall plan aid. It could also get aid from French and Brits and growing Asian economic tigers around it(China getting surrounded and “contained”. US isn’t going friendly with them like otl because now they got better non communist options). Thailand could hop in on western aid and trade too.

This helps France maintain Algeria and much of its African holdings. The rest are made into pro western puppets. France still goes democratic similar to otl but is much more centralist and a large international military force. The Europeans do have to play ball more and bribe US a good bit if they want to retain any of this in any shape or form. After bitterly giving up Indochina and maybe a few other colonies too they decide it is just pragmatic to work and cater to US. Europeans are used to ruling world or having top say. After ww2 they really don’t have that anymore unless we count Soviets but many of them don’t. They do have to sallow there pride and understand they aren’t always playing from position of power anymore. Good part about US over Soviets is ideology is less important to them. If you can argue a point to them and make it appeal to their desires and interests they will side with you. That’s how capitalism often works. Basically “how does you doing this benefit me”.

France is US shield against USSR and Eastern Front. The first line of defense. They could also be the person keeping African regimes pro western. They install a bunch of francophone puppet states in much of Africa south of Algeria or inland. Algeria and more coastal areas are more directly part of France.

The Europeans need to play it off as nation building, economic cooperation, and “military aid”. This is American world now and during Cold War. Unless you won’t to be communist. They need to copy them and play them at there own game. They can’t do stuff like they use too. Africans who opposed this could be depicted as “communist/socialist” and how “majority” supports our “help” and want to work with us. They show westernized elements of these societies. Some places these they do have majority support but in others not so much. Centralist France could be west way at projecting in Africa and preventing it from going red.

This would appeal to Truman and containment doctrine but the Europeans do have to push and present it to Americans. They do have to play if Americans ignorance and bullshit them. If they see deals as beneficial enough they will agree unless they start losing bad or going to extreme on war crimes but I think France and Brits could know when to hold back. Honestly they might understand that better in long run then Americans later on in this pod.

Making remaining bits of Congo failed state or similar to otl while much of Africa is few settler regimes, pro western puppets, direct positions(not colonies at least in name), and conservative monarchs but all steadily developing nations might discredit many nationalist and anti western elements in Africa. The Marshall plan might be extended to parts of Africa(much later or a “renewed” Marshall plan in 80s). Reagan sends money, guns, and foreign aid to French African puppets like he would send “aid” to Latin America.

A more stable and overall less anti Western Africa does help British/commonwealth retain much more of its own influence there. Bringing in Asians on exploiting of Africa could help them too.

Maybe after Katanga gains it’s independence it we see it join commonwealth later and see Commonwealth use mass Chinese diaspora population to send people there. Instead of a bunch of Chinese dying or getting stuck in communist China they do have somewhat of open door policy towards Chinese people but do direct them to certain places to settle. This actually helps their image among many Chinese people outside of China. These Chinese people would also be much more conservative especially regarding women leading to many having high birth rates especially as economic situation improves. Same goes for Indians too. They could have a more open door immigration policy with Indians too.

Edit: The Americans would likely lower trade and travel barriers between them and a possible commonwealth. Almost all of commonwealth especially at first would be English speaking and white dominated. Later on it be mostly first world or top tier second world countries(South Africa still likely has crime and poverty issues. AIDS could still happen too). Also Canada and Caribbean being part of commonwealth and right next to them would make this a no brainer. It makes tourism industry in Caribbean take off even more. Canada provides economic bond that ties US to commonwealth therefore also becoming even more friendly with UK and commonwealth. China also loses out on trade with Canada since UK and US corner market there more.
 
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Spending money on the American military is far more politically acceptable than throwing hundreds of billions of dollars at a foreign empire and hundreds of millions of dollars rigging British elections so Tories stay in power forever.

Prove to me the cost was hundreds of billions of dollars a year. This paper shows French West Africa cost 0.3% of France's annual expenditures:

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Huilery2013JEH.pdf

French GDP in 1970, the earliest I can find it, was $146 billion. And it was doubling every five years. So rolling that backwards, we get about $40 billion GDP in 1960, when French West Africa broke up. France govt spending is about half of GDP, so $20 billion. 0.3% of that is $60 million each year. Let's say the British Empire is 20 times more expensive than French West Africa. That's $1.2 billion, even if all the cost is borne on the Americans. So your hundreds of billions is rubbish.
 
Everyone has its own political system domestically and have a British version of EU parliament. All commonwealth also likely retain more ceremonial titles. The bigger and non white ones still likely see empire and never join commonwealth.

The commonwealth could just have stuff like open border, no trade barriers, easy immigration between themselves, and joint defense.

I see the Brits actually liking commonwealth more. Former dominions likely can work with Brits more cordial and mutually then France especially in long run. It also helps solve many problems.

If for example Ireland joined the commonwealth for economic benefits and ties that can be used to ease tensions in Northern Ireland and as propaganda tool against ira. It also can lead to Ireland itself helping more at calming tensions there. If they join commonwealth and if brits are subtle about it which they often are former unionist and loyalist descendants who left Irish republic after independence could move back in republic. Maybe a part of a “good faith” agreement. They are just given duel Irish and British citizenships if they choose too. This makes resettling there easy and tighten trade between two.

Ireland might join because of location and trade with commonwealth members. Most of its more current immigrants are in Canada and British isles. There is also Northern Ireland. They also have people in Australia too. This is more practical and natural move even if they don’t join until EU is around. Ireland likely picks the commonwealth over EU because that would make way more sense.

Yeah, no. There would be no Irish Government of OTL that would agree to such a situation.
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
Prove to me the cost was hundreds of billions of dollars a year. This paper shows French West Africa cost 0.3% of France's annual expenditures:

http://piketty.pse.ens.fr/files/Huilery2013JEH.pdf

French GDP in 1970, the earliest I can find it, was $146 billion. And it was doubling every five years. So rolling that backwards, we get about $40 billion GDP in 1960, when French West Africa broke up. France govt spending is about half of GDP, so $20 billion. 0.3% of that is $60 million each year. Let's say the British Empire is 20 times more expensive than French West Africa. That's $1.2 billion, even if all the cost is borne on the Americans. So your hundreds of billions is rubbish.
Calculate the costs of fighting the Mau Mau uprising, Malayan Emergency, and Rhodesian Bush War and multiply them across the entire British Empire for over half a century, including pensions for disabled and killed veterans. Then calculate opportunity costs for not spending that money on something useful, the loss of trade and tourism from British unpopularity around the world, and the economic damage dealt by keeping Britain under conscription.
 
The British Empire was beyond preservation, regardless of whether that would have served American interests or not. India wasn't simply 'The Jewel in the Crown,' it was the keystone. British influence in South East Asia, and for that matter in East Africa and the Middle East was ultimately dependent upon the subcontinent. Once India is gone, the only question is how much blood and treasure the UK is prepared to spend before it acknowledges it can't hold the Empire.

Canada and Australia were already entering America's orbit before World War II. South Africa is on its way out of the British sphere.

Nigeria would be a nightmare of blood to try and hold against its will.

New Zealand is more economically dependent upon the UK than the other settler colonies, but it's hardly the basis of being a great power.


No, the Empire was gone, no matter how many nostalgic timelines get written on this place that try and find the perfect formula for keeping the map red.
Yeah...

Given suitable circumstances I can maybe see New Zealand being interested in somewhat closer than historical ties to the UK, perhaps along with some of the Caribean holdings, and of course the Falklands ?

I don't think that really counts as an empire and other than the Falklands I suspect they will all be looking for a timeline towards going their own way.

My apologies if I have missed a few other holdings.
 
Calculate the costs of fighting the Mau Mau uprising, Malayan Emergency, and Rhodesian Bush War and multiply them across the entire British Empire for over half a century, including pensions for disabled and killed veterans. Then calculate opportunity costs for not spending that money on something useful, the loss of trade and tourism from British unpopularity around the world, and the economic damage dealt by keeping Britain under conscription.

It is your claim that it would be hundreds of billions of dollars. Substantiate it.
 
Any president who's dumb enough to propose propping up the British Empire would be immediately impeached for gross stupidity and misuse of taxpayer dollars, and rightfully so.
 
It is your claim that it would be hundreds of billions of dollars. Substantiate it.
Cost of the Algerian war in 1957
[ QUOTE]Finally, prosecuting the war was draining the economic, military, and political health of the nation. Military spending, continuous since 1956, put the public debt at fifty-eight percent of national revenues.[44] The budget deficit, 650 billion francs per annum between 1952 and 1956, grew thirty percent to 925 billion. This lopsided balance sheet capsized the franc, generating double-digit inflation; prices for retail goods rose fifteen percent.[45][/QUOTE]
https://quod.lib.umich.edu/w/wsfh/0...the-war-and-right-wing?rgn=main;view=fulltext

At the height of the Algerian war, French military spending was 6.19 percent of it's GDP.

https://www.indexmundi.com/facts/france/indicator/MS.MIL.XPND.GD.ZS

Given the vastly larger population of Britain's colonies the cost would be far more.
 
No. In fact we should have insisted on welsh, scottish independence along with Irish reunification on Dublin's terms. The brits got us into two world wars, wasted the lives of hundreds of thousands of americans for absolutely nothing. We didn't even get any caribbean islands out of it.
 
To do this would really have to change the nature of European Imperialism at some point. Somehow have Britain change from the mercantile system of extraction/exploitation and allowing the people of the colonies to have members that they select and report to London. Somehow also allow the black Africans into the political and economic system by allowing them jobs, lands, and a way to proper. Building up the infrastructure of areas of the empire in ways that were not just a railroad line to pull resources from the interior of the colony and ship home.

Basically change the entire mindset of Britain during the age of imperialism and all of the people of the Empire outside of Britain to think to feel and believe that they were on the same level as those that are back home in "England"
 
World War II destroyed British dreams of holding onto their empire. Nothing the Americans could've done would've preserved the Empire. Even at the end of World War I, Australia and New Zealand were beginning to form their own national identities and in the 1930s, Canada became a proper Dominion in the British Empire, not just another British colony. World War II just finished the job by laying waste to Britain's Asian holdings and providing opportunities for minorities to claim their own destinies as independent people, fighting for their dreams of nationhood. Also, the fact that the British Isles were effectively destroyed by the Luftwaffe meant more money had to be spent restoring the British economy, than they could've spent keeping their grip on the Empire.

The brits got us into two world wars, wasted the lives of hundreds of thousands of americans for absolutely nothing

World War II prompted the beginning of a US hegemony which still lasts to this today. By the way, without Britain and it's empire, the United States would've been geopolitically isolated on the world stage. If you thought Lend-Lease was just about fighting the Nazis, you're wrong. It was about strengthening a nation that was friendly to US interests.
 
No. In fact we should have insisted on welsh, scottish independence along with Irish reunification on Dublin's terms. The brits got us into two world wars, wasted the lives of hundreds of thousands of americans for absolutely nothing. We didn't even get any caribbean islands out of it.

Yes, the US should have insisted on Welsh independence because it was so obviously what the Welsh people wanted, as is shown by the fact the Plaid Cymru didn't elect even a single MP until 1966 and that in 1979 only 20% of Welsh voters even supported a devolved Assembly. But maybe the US should have insisted on it anyway--even against the wishes of the Welsh people-- to get back at the evil Brits who were obviously solely responsible for the US getting into World War II, those nice Nazis and Japanese militarists obviously having nothing to do with it...
 
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