Would America Have Resisted Nazi Occupation?

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The elephant in the room everyone's talking around is how, exactly, do the Nazis defeat and occupy the United States? The nature of the resistance is going to depend heavily on how the conflict goes, beyond that there's little point in discussing how the occupation would go. Clearly a France-like defeat is going to be highly unlikely and if the Nazis are trying to invade the United States they'd be doing it long after the British Empire and the USSR have been totally subdued and their colonies at the minimum neutralized as a threat. On top of that you'd have a US government that, barring paint smoothies becoming a thing, would be taking steps to secure the Western Hemisphere and prepare their defenses for warding off any and all Axis attempts to invade the Americas.

Alongside this is the enormous amount of material, preparation, and time it would take to prepare for launching an invasion of the United States. For a point of comparison the US needed a solid two years, with the largest industrial output on the planet, no Eastern Front demanding constant reinforcement, or a snowball's chance of enemy naval forces staging a raid serious enough to disrupt production, to produce the necessary ships, especially fleet oilers, and specialized equipment to support the thrust across the Pacific. What this means is the US will have more than sufficient warning of any intended Nazi invasion and have ample time to prepare for it.

Then there's the question of what Nazi Germany will be looking like. Odds are if they've beaten Britain and the USSR they're implementing Generalplan Ost which called for a level of mass genocide that is without precedent in human history. Killing hundreds of millions of people takes a lot of work, weapons, and material to do so it would be safe to assume the first couple of decades following the end of the war they won't have the resources to crush European Russia into dust and prepare adequate forces for an invasion of the US. Especially if you have a US that would be receiving British refugees and probably a handful of Soviet and Jewish ones too with their own horror stories to tell.

What that means is by the time the Nazis actually have the means to even try this you'll be looking at two massively mobilized continental power blocs squaring off for war. Nukes are unlikely on the Nazi side (thanks to their wholehearted embrace of boneheaded ideas like Deutchphysik) but even without them you can expect other WMDs to be in play. You'd be talking a conflict that would be best summed up as the Pacific War (for the sea phase) followed by the Eastern Front and China (for the land phase) on steroids, a struggle that would make CalBear's already massive and horrific Anglo-American Nazi War look like a playground scuffle. It would be unbelievably bloody, incredibly destructive, and even in victory the Nazis would be left limping in pain from the cost in blood and treasure. You won't be getting anything like the relatively placid Berlin of Turtledove's In the Presence of Mine Enemies and probably much more like a post-apocalyptic hellhole on all sides.

In any world where they have subdued to outright conquered the USSR and British Empire you are assuming a level of competence among the Nazi leadership that Hitler, Himmer and Göring simply did not possess or the British and Soviet leadership eating lead pain chips, likely it would have to be some combination of the two.

Either way I do think the Germans would have nukes by the 50s as they would have absorbed many of the scientists, spy networks, and intelligence from Britain and the Soviet Union.
 
Still, how do you mount an effective resistance when the Germans have nukes, are more than mad enough to use them, and you don't?

Any semi-successful uprising, or the occupation of any valuable piece of territory, will lead to such a horrible retaliation that makes it all moot.
 
In any world where they have subdued to outright conquered the USSR and British Empire you are assuming a level of competence among the Nazi leadership that Hitler, Himmer and Göring simply did not possess or the British and Soviet leadership eating lead pain chips, likely it would have to be some combination of the two.

Either way I do think the Germans would have nukes by the 50s as they would have absorbed many of the scientists, spy networks, and intelligence from Britain and the Soviet Union.

On the question of nukes they didn't believe the science behind it was possible because it was the result of "Jewish physics". That, at the minimum, is going to seriously set back their efforts in producing a workable bomb. The US would also probably have one as there aren't similar constraints and when rumors reach any US government the Axis are developing an atomic superweapon they'll throw resources at it as well.

Any such war where the Axis somehow invade and subdue the Americas is one that will involve nukes, gas, and any number of other WMDs flying freely, horrific casualty levels, and even a victorious Germany would be a gutted shell for a hundred years from all the damage done. They would have needed to throw most of their most fit for service generation into a bloody meat grinder, expended a tremendous amount of resources, and it would take a lot of time to accomplish. Odds are any occupation would focus on pillaging as much resources as possible to rebuild the Reich, giving further reason for resistance and dissent. It would also mean the Reich, having been free with nukes during the war, would be less likely to use them after as they'd need all the uncontaminated resources they could get their hands on.

Oh and that's before going into what they'd do to anyone deemed untermenschen in the US. There's going to be lots of mass graves all over the country on top of everything else. Whatever would be left of the US would more closely resemble an abattoir than a functioning society and Germany would be only just barely capable of functioning by sucking its conquests dry of resources. Sooner or later that's going to implode as Nazi economics, even if they're just rational enough to sustain this campaign, were not exactly long-term functional and with so much lost labor in such an incredibly costly war the end result will be a very shaky house of cards one stiff breeze away from falling over. Such a conflict would be genuinely apocalyptic for both sides and you'd probably see industrialization as we know it cease to be in large parts of the world.
 
What happens to Canada in this putative scenario? And Mexico too, for that matter? Do they just fall like dominoes to the Nazi force?
 
What happens to Canada in this putative scenario? And Mexico too, for that matter? Do they just fall like dominoes to the Nazi force?

If the US is following a hemispheric defense plan they'd be involved in the war effort and under US protection whether they wanted it or not though when you're talking the Nazis I don't think there would be much opposition to the US military working to keep them out of the Americas from either government. Logistically speaking Mexico is also too far away from the Nazis to reach until after they make landing somewhere else while Canada would be a more likely target for an initial lodgement.

Any scenario where the Nazis stand triumphant over all their foes in Europe means the US is going to move into the hemispheric defense posture. Even the America First crowd wasn't advocating pacifistic policies in the face of the Nazis and were arguing more that the smartest thing the US could do is prepare to defend itself from attack. If the UK and USSR falls to the Nazis then you'd see the US digging in for war on a continental scale. Any conflict that would follow would be unbelievably horrific. If you wanted a good Vlad Tepes world where everyone loses one where the Nazis are capable of and are launching a trans-Atlantic invasion would fit the bill perfectly.
 
The Germans could never pull it off. With that said, the US is like Russia and China in one big and important way. It's massive. An invasion of the US would be a logistic nightmare and the Americans have the industrial strength and respurces to out produce their German foes. There would be no chance of success here. Which is another reason that declaring war on the US was stupid.
 
This is a little bit like asking if America would resist Asgardian occupation. There's really no way to know, because the premise is so ridiculous that you can make up whatever scenario you want.

Well the last time an Asgardian tried invading they fought him off...;)

ETA: Actually even in Thor meets Captain America, the Nazi's still hadn't conquered the US even with the entire pantheon of Asgard on their side, except Loki.
 
The Germans could never pull it off. With that said, the US is like Russia and China in one big and important way. It's massive. An invasion of the US would be a logistic nightmare and the Americans have the industrial strength and respurces to out produce their German foes. There would be no chance of success here. Which is another reason that declaring war on the US was stupid.

It was coming anyway in a matter of months though it was stupid to give FDR just enough political capital for a Europe first strategy.

1. America is in Total War mode because of Japan so it's not like FDR won't be building a military capable of defeating Germany and Japan at the same time.
2. LL is happening now to all Germany's foes.

The reality was it was a situation where Germany either brings home all its U-Boats from everywhere or war in a matter of months was inevitable. It still was stupid to hurry it up, but Hitler wasn't trying to conquer the U.S. when he did that he was trying to get at the LL ships that were supplying the British and the USSR.
 
It was coming anyway in a matter of months though it was stupid to give FDR just enough political capital for a Europe first strategy.

1. America is in Total War mode because of Japan so it's not like FDR won't be building a military capable of defeating Germany and Japan at the same time.
2. LL is happening now to all Germany's foes.

The reality was it was a situation where Germany either brings home all its U-Boats from everywhere or war in a matter of months was inevitable. It still was stupid to hurry it up, but Hitler wasn't trying to conquer the U.S. when he did that he was trying to get at the LL ships that were supplying the British and the USSR.
It still was stupid. Attacking the US gave FDR a casus belli for Japan. Declaring war on the US gave FDR a casus belli for Germany. Hitler had blundered his way into a two front war with two superpowers.
 
It still was stupid. Attacking the US gave FDR a casus belli for Japan. Declaring war on the US gave FDR a casus belli for Germany. Hitler had blundered his way into a two front war with two superpowers.

I said it was stupid, but don't think that FDR wouldn't already get cause for war within a few months the next time a LL ship sinks.

Pound for pound it was less stupid then Unrestricted Sub Warfare in WW1 or the Zimmermann Telegram as it's not like America had something like LL in place and was already the economic engine of the Allies before entering the war.

America and Germany were going to war the only question was in December of 1941 or a few months later the Japanese made sure of that.

Lend Lease meant America's industrial might was already in the war.
 
I said it was stupid, but don't think that FDR wouldn't already get cause for war within a few months the next time a LL ship sinks.

Pound for pound it was less stupid then Unrestricted Sub Warfare in WW1 or the Zimmermann Telegram as it's not like America had something like LL in place and was already the economic engine of the Allies before entering the war.

America and Germany were going to war the only question was in December of 1941 or a few months later the Japanese made sure of that.

Lend Lease meant America's industrial might was already in the war.
The point is, declaring war on another major power while heavily involved with the British Empire and even more, Russia was stupid. If FDR declared war later, fine. But Hitler willingly took on two superpowers at the same time.
 
The point is, declaring war on another major power while heavily involved with the British Empire and even more, Russia was stupid. If FDR declared war later, fine. But Hitler willingly took on two superpowers at the same time.

I understand that is how you see it as, but our main contribution to the war as in LL to the Soviets and British was already in place. LL could and would have kept the USSR and Britian in the war.

The actual DoW was only stupid so far as it made a Europe first strategy politically possible, but even Normandy and the U.S. Army in Europe was not as important as LL to the war in Europe. With no LL it would have been a stalemate around Ukraine or Eastern Poland, LL guaranteed the Soviets would win.

Honestly the Germans today should thank their lucky stars that the DoW happened when it did and not 6 months later because FDR would have been willing to give Stalin all of Germany if he was busy in Japan in 1945 and hadn't landed in Europe.
 
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Geon

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I am aware this thread has been dead for some time. But after a lot of searching I found the article or at least the cover of the magazine for the article I mentioned here.

Saturday Evening Post

I don't know if anyone has read it, but prior to The Man in the High Tower there was a fictional account of Nazi occupation of the U.S. in an old (late 50's early 60's) issue of the Saturday Evening Post. Has anyone seen that? I have not been able to locate in my searching the web.
Geon

Here it is. Note the author. I had forgotten it was Shirer. Has anyone seen this online?

1961-12-19.jpg
 
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