Would a world without the USA a worse world?

Would a world without the USA a worse world?

  • Yes

    Votes: 126 53.6%
  • No

    Votes: 109 46.4%

  • Total voters
    235
Important perhaps but not defining or unique. The butterflies from a lack of ARW could result in one elsewhere whose later inhabitants declare that to be the defining moment in the cause of liberalism. The ARW is not an exceptional event.
How is it not an exceptional event?
 
True, but liberal ideas were not gaining much traction arguably outside of Britain before the American Revolution.
Even if that were the case it does not mean that they would not focus on other events. Something like the French Revolution was inevitable considering the state of French administration at the time. Etc etc.
 
Even if the French Revolution would have happened anyway, it is no substitute for the American Revolution. American Revolution created a free nation that got freer and more powerful over time. The French Revolution bred terror and Caesarism. French Rev Without America would terrify Europe and convince them not to try liberalism for generations.
 
Even if the French Revolution would have happened anyway, it is no substitute for the American Revolution. American Revolution created a free nation that got freer and more powerful over time. The French Revolution bred terror and Caesarism. French Rev Without America would terrify Europe and convince them not to try liberalism for generations.
It’s been pointed out further up in the thread that despite the “terror and Caesarism”, other revolutions in Europe were inspired in large part by France and Napoleon. And without the ARW, the French Revolution might go very differently—maybe the King isn’t even deposed and we end up with a constitutional monarchy instead that’s still much freer than the Ancien Régime.
 
Even if the French Revolution would have happened anyway, it is no substitute for the American Revolution. American Revolution created a free nation that got freer and more powerful over time. The French Revolution bred terror and Caesarism. French Rev Without America would terrify Europe and convince them not to try liberalism for generations.
Or the deliberate expunging of liberalism might highlight the perils of mob tyranny and inspire a beacon of liberalism in the West.
How many times does it need to be said that the ARW is not the SOLE inspiration for liberalism?
 
I suggest you read one of the many threads about it. I'm not going to go into more detail other than to say the ARW is not the sole cause of it. Unless you have evidence it is?
I've never said it was the sole cause. If you're not going to read my posts, why should I bother engaging further on the subject?
 

IFwanderer

Banned
@Wendell: your post last page is frankly too massive to give it a proper answer, if you have any points in particular you'd like me to reply to, please mention those specifically.

Without the USA, Europe would be either Nazi or Soviet by now.
With over a century between US independence and the Russian Revolution, there is enough stuff happening differently that it's not possible to conclude there would be Nazis or Soviets.

So, historical events are inevitable?
Depends on timeframe and scale and so on, I'm probably not going to avoid a great war between European powers by thwarting Franz Ferdinand's assassination given the geopolitical tensions in the background, but that version of WW1 would probably be unrecognizable to OTL. Likewise, it's not very likely that averting the US revolution in the way presented in the OP (he mentions "Britain [holding] on to the Thirteen Colonies", so we'd assume there is still a similar revolutionary war happening) would still lead to French bankruptcy and socioeconomical strife leading to some form of revolution. A scenario like "The UK peacefully reaches an agreement with their colonies, defusing the situation before revolution" might avert the French Revolution by leaving France's finances in better shape.

Why is it extreme likely even without the American Revolution?
Because the socioeconomical conditions in France and Europe at the time of the French Revolution make it likely to have an uprising against the French monarchy.

Does no Columbus mean America is never discovered?
You'd have to ask Leif Erikson. Or, better yet, the many civilizations that lived in the continent before any European set foot there.

Less condescendingly, the route that Portuguese ships took to reach India went very near to the coast of Brazil, so one unfortunate storm at the right time and you get a Portuguese discovery of America in the early XVIth century.

I've never said it was the sole cause. If you're not going to read my posts, why should I bother engaging further on the subject?
You're moving the goalposts now.
 
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