Would a victorious Nazi Germany go ahead with Generalplan Ost?

[Clandango]

Hmm, an interesting TL would be this and Zhukov and an army and co go volunteer with Mao Tse-Tung in return for help liberating the Motherland later. Heheh

Mao would have them all murdered. I do recall reading somewhere, might have been in Hitler's Table Talks, that Hitler thought the Soviets would move south into India or China after being driven past the Urals.

Ahh, and we know some of the areas the Germans wanted to retlefirsr. Ingria, Crimea, some place around Bialostok... What other places would they focus on using as bases and expanding out from? Baku probably, but just for oil. Maybe they go for Kiev and Novgorod? Claim they are Varangian founded and inspired cities and limit the complete obliteration of the culture and populace there? Might be they claim certain parts of the Rus and Ruthenians are mostly Goths or Varagian in blood, and use that as a reward for Cossacks and acceptable collaborators. Novgorod was also part of the Hanseatic League, so maybe they use that as a further excuse, though the Germans probably will just go with their usual 'kidnap pale children and claim they are descended from Aryans while murdering their parents'.

 

[Mr.Wigglemunch]

Mao would have them all murdered.

No, the Chinese Communists would welcome troops, equipment and expertise to bolster their position under their command.

 

[Whiteshore]

Well, the broad strokes of Generalplan Ost are likely to be carried out but it's likely that they not carry out the more ridiculous parts (like Lake Moscow).

 

[Mr.Wigglemunch]

Also there is Tuva and the People's Republic of Mongolia to fall back to.

 

[Clandango]

No, the Chinese Communists would welcome troops, equipment and expertise to bolster their position under their command.

I am talking about Mao, not the Chinese communists. He had... Well, a thing about potential rivals. Might be some of the Russian generals are more amiable to the Chinese communists though, and they get more agreeable leadership. And then we can get Eastasia.

 

[Whiteshore]

I am talking about Mao, not the Chinese communists. He had... Well, a thing about potential rivals. Might be some of the Russian generals are more amiable to the Chinese communists though, and they get more agreeable leadership. And then we can get Eastasia.

Or alternatively, Chiang shoots them or press gangs them after defeating the Chinese communists.

 

[Mr.Wigglemunch]

I am talking about Mao, not the Chinese communists. He had... Well, a thing about potential rivals. Might be some of the Russian generals are more amiable to the Chinese communists though, and they get more agreeable leadership. And then we can get Eastasia.

Later on yes, but at this point in time it was an accepted rule amongst Communists if you were on someone elses turf then their party is boss.

 

[Clandango]

Or alternatively, Chiang shoots them or press gangs them after defeating the Chinese communists.

Don't forget the Japanese. If the Nazis win so totally then either the Americans kept out of it or the were busy in East Asia.

 

[Histor32]

Metaphorically.

not even metaphorically ... war 1: liberate Kuwait.
war 2: make money for defense contracts and ruin the lives of people in Iraq
there was no plan at all for war 2.. just drop bombs and get rid of Hussien, no after party plan, no during party plan; just smash hulk smash...
this shows in the fact that after it was over, no one had a clue what to do or who was in charge or what was going to happen.

 

[Histor32]

if the Nazi's are "victorious" and lets use that term loosely, there would be lots of dead people. this is not a doubt, however I think that this would be tempered with labor needs and just settle into a serf based system of sorts with most slavs having 0 rights and being treated not much better than property. horrific

 

[fluttersky]

not even metaphorically ...

Are you suggesting that the USA literally intended to admit Iraq to the union as the 51st U.S. state?

If so, I disagree. Don't think that either the Americans or the Iraqis would want that to happen.

 

[DrakonFin]

Would be nice to think the above but not one shred of evidence to back it up. Lots of evidence that Nazi indoctrination meant they were not seeing Slavs as people just things or numbers, no evidence that the killing was having any pushback effect. Lots of evidence the younger people were the more indoctrinated they had become. Nazis were not nice people, hand wringing and saying but they would have got better does not cut it with those who lost kin to their practices.

Again, my argument is not that the Nazi leadership would not want to complete a Generalplan Ost like it was planned during the war, or that Nazi ideology would not demand it. My argument is not that the Nazis were "nice", quite the opposite. They obviously were monsters. What I am questioning is whether it would be realistic to expect the plans to be realized exactly in the way that was envisioned. There are many reasons why many parts of the OTL wartime plans would be unlikely, like limited resources and logistics problems alone. The areas the Third Reich would have conquered would be massive, the populations it would be reigning over huge as well. The fact that a government and state apparatus does not want to accept the constraints of objective reality does not mean that it can escape them through pure evil alone. There is evidence that the OTL atrocities were taking their toll on the German soldiers and ordinary people in psychological terms, etc. This is shown by the fact, referred to above, that the Nazis had to create "cleaner", in other words more impersonal ways to kill Jews and Slavs (which gas chambers, say, represented) as mass executions and other similar "hands on" measures were mentally too hard on the soldiers.

The plans changed over time, and the OTL plans at the beginning of Barbarossa were different from the plans as they were in 1942, various changes happening in only a few months due to war events. I am quite certain that in a victorious Third Reich, the "general plans for the East" would see many different iterations in 1945-1955, say, as the postwar Nazi leadership would have to amend the plans for a new reality. Changes in leadership, and power struggle between various Nazi bigwigs and factions would also have an effect on this. The question about the role of the Heer in the new reality and the success of the plans to make all armed forces part of the Waffen-SS, etc, would also have an effect. The huge rebuilding effort in the Reich would have an effect. So, in reference to the OP - there would be an attempt to complete a Generalplan Ost, it would just be a different plan from what we know from the OTL.

 

[Histor32]

Are you suggesting that the USA literally intended to admit Iraq to the union as the 51st U.S. state?

If so, I disagree. Don't think that either the Americans or the Iraqis would want that to happen.

if you read the rest I point that out the idea of making Iraq a 51st state is absurd as there was no plan even to begin with, let alone some long term we are stronk lets annex Iraq kind of ASB logic

so no I wasn't saying that

 

[Faeelin]

Why can't the Nazis just starve everyone to death? You don't need camps, just continue what t hey were doing OTL.

 

[John Dusk]

Why can't the Nazis just starve everyone to death? You don't need camps, just continue what t hey were doing OTL.

That plus "Extermination Through Labor" which is working people to death.

To accomplish their goals (murdering 85% of Poles, 65% of Ukrainians etc) within the time frame of 20-30 years they'd need to kill/deport between 4 and 6 million annually. To put that in perspective in 1944 OTL there were over 8 million slave laborers in Nazi Germany and 715,000 concentration camp prisoners at its peak. Murder on this scale isn't difficult considering the amount of trains available to ship people, the large number of roles slave labor could fill across Europe, and the task of razing their own cities all of which would make the task as cost effective as it was brutal.

You don't need gas chambers and death squads to exterminate millions of people.

 

[Zhou Yu]

I am talking about Mao, not the Chinese communists. He had... Well, a thing about potential rivals. Might be some of the Russian generals are more amiable to the Chinese communists though, and they get more agreeable leadership. And then we can get Eastasia.

Mao was a fucking dumbass, but he wasn't absolute - not until the Long March. Start killing off support, that's a quick way to lose legitimacy. Mao might've been leader, but he was leading the aforementined Chinese Communists. Even after the Long March, he still had to rely on others. If enough pressure is put on him, he will relent... or go down the CR path.

 

[DrakonFin]

That plus "Extermination Through Labor" which is working people to death.

To accomplish their goals (murdering 85% of Poles, 65% of Ukrainians etc) within the time frame of 20-30 years they'd need to kill/deport between 4 and 6 million annually. To put that in perspective in 1944 OTL there were over 8 million slave laborers in Nazi Germany and 715,000 concentration camp prisoners at its peak. Murder on this scale isn't difficult considering the amount of trains available to ship people, the large number of roles slave labor could fill across Europe, and the task of razing their own cities all of which would make the task as cost effective as it was brutal.

You don't need gas chambers and death squads to exterminate millions of people.

How many people, German and allied men and women, would you estimate the Nazis would need for this work annually, engaged in a massive effort that is a constant net drain on the limited resources of the Third Reich? In other words, what level of continual de facto mobilization would the Reich need to keep up since the mid-40s to achieve this, in addition to all the armed units that the Nazis have occupying much of Europe and the European USSR just to maintain order and avoid/put down insurrections and partisans/guerillas, etc?

 

[John Dusk]

How many people, German and allied men and women, would you estimate the Nazis would need for this work annually, engaged in a massive effort that is a constant net drain on the limited resources of the Third Reich?

What work are you referring to?

Are you referring to those who have to transport and guard the Slavs as they're used for exhaustive labor?

How would it be a net drain?

 

[DrakonFin]

How would it be a net drain?

As opposed to farming, factory production, construction, the transport of goods, scientific research, service jobs and retail, etc, this is work that creates no value for society and only spends resources that are created by someone else. In other words, a net drain.

When you say that "4-6 million annually would have to be killed/deported", I'd like to know that how many people should be engaged in that work. Only that way, we could estimate how much it would cost to do this, how much resources this effort would take from other things the Nazi Reich could be doing. In other words, how likely it would be that it could be achieved.

 

[History Learner]

Correct me if wrong, but I seem to recall that Ukrainian women were declared Aryan in 1943 historically as a result of the large number of half German kids being born. I could definitely see divergences from the overall plan for things like that, and we all know for sure the Nazis were already grabbing certain kids and some women anyway. Generalplan Ost could end up just becoming a "kill most of the men, Germanize the women and kids" type deal.