Would a victorious german empire fully democratize?

Would a victorious german empire fully democratize?

  • Yes, it would turn into a british style constitutional monarchy

    Votes: 22 22.2%
  • It would democratize to a point, but the Kaiser would still have some influence

    Votes: 51 51.5%
  • There would be a minor democratization, the Kaiser still would be a powerfull figure

    Votes: 17 17.2%
  • Ze Reich would remain ze same, heil dir im siegerkranz

    Votes: 9 9.1%

  • Total voters
    99
In a scenario with germany winning WWI due a worse Nivelle multiny (or maybe the US not joining the entente), to which degree would the empire democratize, or it would remain as the aristocratic empire we all know?

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There are several possibilities. I would say that a democratization is a possible scenario (with larger power for the Reichstag), if former soldiers would demand more participation.
But such a victory could also lead to more nationalism. I assume, that such a victory could stabilize the power of the Monarchy for the next decade. Perhaps some generals could use their prestige for more political power. But Liberals and Social Democrats could demand reforms and more power for the Reichstag. Also the left wing of the SPD could split and form their own revolutionary party (as in OTL with the development of the "Spartakus-Bund" and the "USPD" and finaly with the "KPD").

The early 20. century is an interesting time in Germany, because there are so many different groups in the society with many diverse goals, which makes a prediction difficult. (There is not only a powerful Nationalism and Militarism but also a big social democratic party, there are also powerful capitalists/entrepreneurs, political Catholicism has its own party and there are many progressive or reactionary thinkers)

It depends also how big the victory is. Even with a victory, the German Empire is exhausted and need time to recover their economy. It would be difficult to control possible annexation and puppets (especially in Eastern Europe). Also the situation of Austria-Hungary could influence the situation of the German Empire. (Maybe Austria-Hungary is after the end of the War in an internal crisis).

I would say, that 2 or 3 are most likely. 4 would lead to serious internal problems and conflicts and wouldn't be a long term solution.
 
Germany would develope as British style constitutional monarchy. There was much internal pressure so it should develope towards real constitutional monarchy or then fall to revolution.
 

Deleted member 1487

Define fully democratize. Over time it is impossible for them not to evolve politically, just as Britain did, and become more of a constitutional monarchy with more power for the Reichstag and less for the Kaiser, because the Middle Class wanted that. The only ones that wanted more privileges for the elite were the declining aristocracy and weak Kaiser. That was changing like it or not. Over time the franchise would expand. Its just a question of how quickly it would happen.
 

NoMommsen

Donor
The OP states a 'late' victory.

At that point the already in late 1915 pressing question of more particiüation of the Reichstag, the already happened anf happening participation of the tade unions in changing the economical life and ... constitution od the empire, the several already given announcements of the Kaiser to 'change' things even regarding the prussian electoral system ...

Yes Germany will become a constitutional Monarchy with a at first still quite powerfull Emperor, something like the Weimar Reichspresident, maybe a bit more powerfull, maybe a bit less, given the influence of then very powerfull SPD. But even that will dwindle in time, depending on how much influence and power the monarch really exercises, esp. after a new monarch comes to rule.
 
Define fully democratize

Total democratization, all power go to the reichstag, the Kaiser becames a figurehead like the Swedish King

The OP states a 'late' victory.

Yes, but this is also a full victory, germany keeps all their eastern gains plus their desired western territories (like Luxembourg), this would increase the popularity of the hohenzollern a lot
 

Deleted member 1487

Total democratization, all power go to the reichstag, the Kaiser becames a figurehead like the Swedish King
By the end of the 20th century I think the German monarch would be like the British monarchy is now: formally still has huge powers, but out of 'niceness' doesn't ever use them.

Yes, but this is also a full victory, germany keeps all their eastern gains plus their desired western territories (like Luxembourg), this would increase the popularity of the hohenzollern a lot
I don't think the monarchy would get the credit for that.
 
Much as victory helped stabilize constitutional monarchy in Italy and Japan, I see a bright future ahead for the Kaiserreich.
 
I think by 2016 the kaiser would be a figurehead, Europe was heading in that direction by then and I don't see how Germany would be the exception for about a century.
 
The mass parties wanted more power for the Reichstag, less for the Kaiser. And that's how it would've gone, except for Versailles, and its aftermath.

Anyone who thinks the Germans had some sick natural inclination to be ruled by a strongman is an idiot, and is sadly ignorant
of German domestic politics of the time.
 
Although I would agree that a "victory" would do little to spur real changes, from the bits and bobs I have read it appears the internal pressure was mounting to curtail the power of the Kaiser and it appears emulate the British. I believe the democratic impulse stretches back to at least the Confederation of 1848 and the follow on Frankfurt Parliament, so I think German liberals had plenty of history to support continued enfranchisement and democratic reform since modern Germany itself looked back to this era to underpin itself apart from the "Reich(s)". Given the swiftness of revolution in 1919 and the strong political power of the Social Democrats through the Weimar period one can argue that the monarchy in Prussia was very much open to change short of what happened. Ironically it appears that Prussia was the most democratic region post-1919, it and I think Wurtemburg had the most liberal constitutions, were strongly SPD, and so on. Given no revolution and some years it is arguable that the trend would be something more like the modern monarchy, a figure head of state who serves as a uniting symbol but only paid token respect to out of history, the real power remains in the democratically elected diet. Only Bavaria might hold out longer given the popularity of the King. And from how Wilhelm moderated in his old age one might see him agreeable to this erosion so long as the trappings, pomp and flattery remain unchanged. I think it would not be until a later generation for the monarchy to fully fade though, for example an Englishman of 1920 or 1940 had a very different sense of loyalty to the Crown than the average bloke does today, they still change the Guard and publish rude comments in the paper, it is now more love/hate, a vestige of another era, I see no reason that the obviously very progressive Germans that took up power after the war would not have won much the same cultural as well as political battle. The challenge would be Communist revolution and a monarch might have been a lightning rod for revolution if the Depression still occurs.
 
I selected british model but I don't see something like that happening until after Wilhelm II's death. I agree with MichaelWest in that Wilhelm might have given up some in old age but I don't see him giving up too much.
 
I put partial mainly because of the time I think we can extrapolate. I think we can only project a few years after the pod and I don't think Germany would go full constitutional monarchy within that short time frame.
 
I voted minor democratization because I just can't see Germany becoming a British style Monarchy without major external pressure. And this is assuming Germany doesn't remain a de-facto Military dictatorship as it was during the last two years of the war. I think you'd see the Kaiser be forced to become a more hands off monarch (can't see Wilhelm being allowed to carry on like he did before 1914, as his actions significantly contributed to WWI), the ministers answering to the Reichstag or a new law forcing the government to be formed from the largest party in the Reichstag. However I can't see the Kaiser as a ceremonial figurehead, maybe something like 18th century Britain at the most.

Also, remember that it took well over a century for the British monarchy to become entirely ceremonial. From William and Mary to Queen Victoria the Crown still exercised quite a bit of influence and power.
 
A lot of things could happen with this diagram which would constitute more democracy, perhaps the Bundesrat rather than just the Emperor could install the Chancellor or other functions solely in the preserve of the Emperor. Even lowering the voting age to 21 or other extensions of franchise would be an improvement.

German_constitution_of_1871.png
 

Redbeard

Banned
Before WWI the Socialdemocrats already were close to majority and they probably supported the war because they expected to be a serious bid for government after the war. Before WWI Germany wasn't anywhere near an absolute monarchy, but rather a Monarchy with a lot of power concentrated in the Government/the Kaiser, but with an elected parliament having the big word in finances. The next steps towards a fully fledged constitutional democracy/monarchy wouldn't be that big.

I couldn't vote above though, as I really can't see Britain as a constitutional Monarchy, AFAIK Britain hasn't got a constitution at all. But you could say that Germany would evolve into a Scandinavian style Constitutional Monarchy/Democracy - something like Sweden or Denmark on steroids :cool: / :eek:
 
I voted minor democratization because I just can't see Germany becoming a British style Monarchy without major external pressure. And this is assuming Germany doesn't remain a de-facto Military dictatorship as it was during the last two years of the war. I think you'd see the Kaiser be forced to become a more hands off monarch (can't see Wilhelm being allowed to carry on like he did before 1914, as his actions significantly contributed to WWI), the ministers answering to the Reichstag or a new law forcing the government to be formed from the largest party in the Reichstag. However I can't see the Kaiser as a ceremonial figurehead, maybe something like 18th century Britain at the most.

Also, remember that it took well over a century for the British monarchy to become entirely ceremonial. From William and Mary to Queen Victoria the Crown still exercised quite a bit of influence and power.

True that military held power on last years of the war but I don't really see it keeping power long after the war. There was already markable democratic movement and military can't keep power much longer even if it would want.
 
The mass parties wanted more power for the Reichstag, less for the Kaiser. And that's how it would've gone, except for Versailles, and its aftermath.

Anyone who thinks the Germans had some sick natural inclination to be ruled by a strongman is an idiot, and is sadly ignorant
of German domestic politics of the time.

Sadly it seems this website is not lacking in idiots.
 
Sadly it seems this website is not lacking in idiots.

I really spoke out of turn, there. A lot of non-idiotic people could simply not know about such things -- and there are a lot of incorrect "common knowledge" assumptions out there to sway them. I need to remember not to be so judgmental...
 
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