Would a Mexico under Maximilian really be that bad?

I've read quite a few books and TLs about France successfully conquering Mexico (usually thanks to the CSA winning the ACW, but that's not important), and the country always ends up as a backwater shithole.

Now, Maximilian I was actually a rather liberal man, trying to help the poor of Mexico and even implementing some of Juarez's reforms during his reign. Pretty much the main problem Mexico had with him was that he was being forced on it by France.

So my question is this, had he remained in power, would Mexico really have remained such a crappy place? Isn't there a big chance he would have been able to modernize and stabilize the country?
 

TFSmith121

Banned
The Mexicans certainly thought so...

The Mexicans certainly thought so...;)

The problem with Max is however liberal he thought he was, in order to try and hold onto power he alligned with the most conservative elements of Mexican society and the Church, ultimately to the end of becoming an autocrat as brutal as those the Mexicans had fought against for decades, under Spain and afterward.

He was basically a figurehead, propped up by French troops and the Mexican conservatives who had been defeated in the Reforma war in the 1850s.

Once the French left - and they were militarily defeated by the Mexican liberal forces - there was no place for Max et al to go, which is why he, Miramon, and the rest ended up in front of a firing squad.

Best,
 
The Mexicans certainly thought so...;)

The problem with Max is however liberal he thought he was, in order to try and hold onto power he alligned with the most conservative elements of Mexican society and the Church, ultimately to the end of becoming an autocrat as brutal as those the Mexicans had fought against for decades, under Spain and afterward.

He was basically a figurehead, propped up by French troops and the Mexican conservatives who had been defeated in the Reforma war in the 1850s.

Once the French left - and they were militarily defeated by the Mexican liberal forces - there was no place for Max et al to go, which is why he, Miramon, and the rest ended up in front of a firing squad.

Best,

Wouldn't he still have been essentially a French puppet? No, that wouldn't have been good for Mexico.

Yeah, that's definitely the big problem with all that. But assuming the French troops win decisively and Maximilian remains in power in a now pacified country, how would it be? I think he would have done good for the country, to be honest.

Maybe Juarez accepts the armistice the Emperor offered him, or even the Prime Minister job. I know it's far-fetched, but it could happen.
 

TFSmith121

Banned
First, the French couldn't achieve a military resolution as it was

Yeah, that's definitely the big problem with all that. But assuming the French troops win decisively and Maximilian remains in power in a now pacified country, how would it be? I think he would have done good for the country, to be honest.

Maybe Juarez accepts the armistice the Emperor offered him, or even the Prime Minister job. I know it's far-fetched, but it could happen.

First, the French couldn't achieve a military resolution as it was; second, the US was not ever going to accept it; third, the Mexican liberals are basically going to fight for as long as it takes - basically, endemic guerilla warfare to the knife until the French go home, and Max et al get stood against a wall.

Which is what happened in reality.

And if not, what happens in 1870?

Foundationally, Mexico had fought a long and bitter revolutionary war against Spain that lasted until the 1820s; they had then fought a series of pretty nasty internal conflicts, off and on, for the four decades until the French intervention - which, of course, the Mexicans defeated in 1862.

I mean, obviously, a successful and stable government in the 1860s would have done a lot for Mexico in the decades afterward, but basically, Mexico got a strongman who looked sharp in a uniform in the 1870s ... he was a Mexican strongman, however.;)



Sometimes it just comes down to "yes, he's a SOB, but he's OUR SOB."

Best,
 
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Will if we assume that Maximilain can hold the throne against Juarez and defeat the insurrection (from Maxs point) he would certainly start to develop the country. How far his reforms would suceed depends much on how big his power base will be.

He was brought into the country by the conservatives (well with french support, but the conservatives formally asked him), so he would have to cater their demands. OTOH his liberal tendencies (he still was the child of one of the most conservative European ruling houses) will lead to reforms. Those will at least strain his ties with the conservatives.

I think he will definitely allow a constitutional monarchy at some point (likely after France withdraws (latest 1870/71 probably).

So overall i think he will ride a wild mustang in Mexico, but I doubt it will be worse than Diaz de facto dictature and the following revolutions.
 
There would of course be the problem of the heir, unless somehow Carlota finally gets pregnant (highly unlikely), because Maxl refused to be just a placeholder for the Iturbides and tried to manipulate his youngest brother, Ludwig, into marrying a daughter of Pedro II of Brasil so that he could produce heirs for Mexico; and then when he adopted the Iturbide boys as an attempt for Karl Ludwig to "give" him one of his sons. Neither happened, Ludwig remained gay "with a ballerina for an adjutant" (as FJ joked) and none of Karl Ludwig's boys made the journey. Although, FF ending up in Mexico means a marriage to Sophie Chotek and by extension his assassination at Sarajevo is unlikely. Could have interesting butterflies.

http://madmonarchist.blogspot.com/search?q=emperor+maximilian
 
If Max keeps the throne I bet FJ would finally decide the Ludwig has to "give" up one of the boys for Mexico.

Franz Ferdinand had inherited Tuberculosis from his Mother (as had the third son), the second Otto Franz Josef was healthy, so I assume he would have been the "choice son".
 
If Max keeps the throne I bet FJ would finally decide the Ludwig has to "give" up one of the boys for Mexico.

Franz Ferdinand had inherited Tuberculosis from his Mother (as had the third son), the second Otto Franz Josef was healthy, so I assume he would have been the "choice son".

FF might end up being sent to Mexico (this of course being before Mayerling) in a double move - both for the political security of the Mexican Empire and as a way of bettering his health - the climate being warmer and all that.

Or in the problem of a Mexican heir, we can just have Carlota die of some disease allowing Max to remarry. I don't say he would, but he probably will consider it his duty - and a good match would be to Maria Josefa de Iturbide y Marzan (sister of Prince Salvador) born in 1848 . Or alternatively, he might legitimize the bastard son he had with Concepción Sedano y Leguizano.
 
I've read quite a few books and TLs about France successfully conquering Mexico (usually thanks to the CSA winning the ACW, but that's not important), and the country always ends up as a backwater shithole.

Now, Maximilian I was actually a rather liberal man, trying to help the poor of Mexico and even implementing some of Juarez's reforms during his reign. Pretty much the main problem Mexico had with him was that he was being forced on it by France.

So my question is this, had he remained in power, would Mexico really have remained such a crappy place? Isn't there a big chance he would have been able to modernize and stabilize the country?

Maybe not; Maximilian, it seems, was more of a tragic figure more than anything, who, although well-intended, simply could not escape the various political webs around him. I mean, sure he wasn't perfect, but he wasn't quite Santa Anna, either.
 
Arguably the main positive thing that Diaz did that Max could have done sooner and better would be cleverly bringing in European investors in order to efficiently mine silver and coal, create jobs for the poor displaced by war and lawlessness, build the railroads, and develop the infrastructure. This was a challenge for Diaz, who was definitely not attempting to do this out of the kindness of his heart, but would have been less so for a competent Hapsburg. Max certainly wasn't ignorant of this. By 1870 we're looking at a large scale European coal and silver mining industry and investment banking within Mexico that creates jobs for the locals and increases wages enough for immigration to look attractive.

He was keen on establishing a good navy, which would be interesting to see. Mexico has the coasts and the building materials but it's never really had the ships or the sailors. A Royal Mexican Navy might become an enormous player in the Pacific and the Caribbean and during the 19th and 20th centuries having a good navy was good for a country. Of course, there will be clashes with neighbors and some might be catastrophic, but if the Empire of Mexico and the U.S. can begrudgingly develop a common enemy before their own war breaks out, say, against Spain, the U.S. should come around to having a liberal monarchy nearby... At least until alliances shift overseas.

The other thing to consider is that Maximillian would by all accounts have been satisfied with becoming a figurehead monarch to a democratic republic, a figurehead who surely would have brought Mexico into the European sphere - a wealthy sphere. The Mexican people would have been able to decide their policy while benefitting from an Austrain Emperor who simply wants to build himself a pretty navy and build vanity projects for his wife while finally connecting them as a nation to the world. Nappy III only had so long a time to influence Mexico directly and Maximilian never intended to be a puppet to him.

So, no. If they can find a compromise between the liberals and conservatives and hold down the peace for a bit, Maximilian would have been an ideal head of a soon to be growing constitutional monarchy.
 
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