Would a congress poland Polish SSR be possible?

Gukpard

Gukpard

Stalin hated poles a lot, but to have two buffer states between the USSR and the west he pushed poland west and annexed their eastern lands.

Let's say that he did something different, he let east germany to be the buffer state and annexed poland as a SSR, as the map below shows.

BQJgqis.png

Is that possible? What changes could happen?
 

Cubert

It certainly seems possible in the sense that I don't think the Allies would've launched Unthinkable over it (considering its very poor odds to begin with), but I don't see why the Soviet Union would bother. Probably leads to a more tense Cold War initially. Extra post-Soviet state, maybe no Kaliningrad if they decide all of East Prussia goes to the Polish SSR.
 
Disraeli2004

Disraeli2004

Yes, if the Soviets won the Polish-Soviet war in 1922 it would probably be annexed as a Polish SSR, yes. Remember that Lenin was trying to assert territorial sovereignty over all of the former Russian Empire. I think this is more likely than the 1945 option because the war WAS started over Poland, and the allies at least wanted a national government in Poland (the Soviets would have to trade this annexations for other more significant concessions).
 
CHKeeley

CHKeeley

Taxationistheft said:
Yes, if the Soviets won the Polish-Soviet war in 1922 it would probably be annexed as a Polish SSR, yes. Remember that Lenin was trying to assert territorial sovereignty over all of the former Russian Empire. I think this is more likely than the 1945 option because the war WAS started over Poland, and the allies at least wanted a national government in Poland (the Soviets would have to trade this annexations for other more significant concessions).
Click to expand...

I believe there was some serious debate among the Bolshevik leadership when the Red Army was approaching the Vistula in 1920 about the possible status of Poland should they succeed: Stalin was actually one of the people pushing hard that a Polish SSR would not be sustainable and needed to be made its own sovereign “sister republic” along with people like Dzerzhinsky and Karl Radek. I think Lenin desired an SSR Poland, but there’s a fair chance that a Soviet victory in ‘20 still results in an existing Poland instead of a subdivision of Russia.
 

Masteroftheuniverse

Stalin would never have annexed Poland. During the Polish-Soviet War he argued with Lenin about whether or not to annex Poland.
Here's a speech he gave in 1923, summarising his position.
"I said [to Lenin] - and this is all preserved in the archives of the Central Committee – that that would not work. If you think the nationalities of former Russia will stay in a framework of federalisation – that is understandable enough, but if you think that Germany will at some point come to you to join a federation with the same rights as Ukraine – you are mistaken. If you think that even Poland, which has taken the form of a bourgeois state with all its attributes, will enter into the composition of a union with the same rights as Ukraine – you are mistaken. That is what I said then. And comrade Lenin sent out a long letter - that is chauvinism, nationalism, we need a centralized world economy, run from a single organ."
 

David T

See my posts at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-all-of-the-warsaw-pact.464098/#post-18636109 and https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/poland-as-an-ssr.400398/#post-13327392 Even in 1920 Stalin recognized--and this angered Lenin--that the realities of nationalism in eastern and central Europe militated against including Germany or even Poland in a federation with Soviet Russia. As I noted at https://www.alternatehistory.com/fo...-all-of-the-warsaw-pact.464098/#post-18636109

"In 1920 when it seemed like the Red Army was about to being Communism to Poland and Germany, Stalin insisted that even in that event, those nations must remain independent: "I said [to Lenin] - and this is all preserved in the archives of the Central Committee – that that would not work. If you think the nationalities of former Russia will stay in a framework of federalisation – that is understandable enough, but if you think that Germany will at some point come to you to join a federation with the same rights as Ukraine – you are mistaken. If you think that even Poland, which has taken the form of a bourgeois state with all its attributes, will enter into the composition of a union with the same rights as Ukraine – you are mistaken. That is what I said then. And comrade Lenin sent out a long letter - that is chauvinism, nationalism, we need a centralized world economy, run from a single organ."

In 1945, it made even less sense. All that Stalin wanted from Poland and the other "people's democracies"--from nationalization of industry to purge trials to military integration with the USSR--could be attained while leaving these states formally independent (and with seats in the UN where they would of course back the Soviet position). It would alienate even left-wing Poles who could accept a Poland oriented to the USSR but who still cherished symbols of national independence. Also it would--if done in 1945-- lead to a break with the West before Stalin was ready for such a break.
 
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