Worst Empire in modern times

[Vnix]

Dutch- fought a war complete with atrocities post WW2 when others were attempting to decolonize

This is not spacebattles... We do not work with absolutes, I'd suggest you read a bit on the Dutch Actions after WW2. Indonesia after Japanese surrender was a massive powervaquum. THe Japanese soldiers didn't surrender to anyone, they simply surredered and stopped doing anything.

In fact, those people of mixed blood, and european blood (200k people), had to be protected by the Japanese from execution for their skincolour.

Atrocities were not as you suggest a Dutch monopoly, and up untill Operatie Krai, wherein Soekarno and Hatta were apprehanded by the Dutch in an "unprovoced" invasion of the Indonesian Republic did the other regions of the Indonesian Federation side with the Republic, before that, they were quite standfast in their support of the Dutch.

While I can understand your "colonial war after ww2"-spiel, I'd urge you to study the problem/conflict a bit more. I went into the offical reccords kept in The Hague and read mroe than my share of books and interviews.


Also did you know the ranks of the KNIL swelled with Indonesians during that time in the fight against the Republic, people who were later murdered if they stayed in Indonesia? In the ENd though, I don't deny a history of atrocities in Indonesia, on the Dutch side, but don't you dare put it all on the Dutch their heads. There was a decolonisation programme, but not the one some Indonesians wanted, though a significant amount of others did want it. Even now, Orangism is strong in certain parts of Indonesia. Go to the Malukku Islands when the Neterlands plays, you'll see orange and red white blue in big numbers.

 

[ghappy1000]

1. Nazi's - it doesn't get any worse than that. Planned genocide on a grand scale. I cannot think of one redeeming feature - maybe autobahns.

2. Soviets - murdered more than the Nazi's and unlike many didn't bother to restrict themselves to other countries citizens, quite happy to kill their own. Slightly better as they at least educated their people and sponsored developments.

At their worst, their human rights record and level of oppression was worse than the Nazi's.

3. Belgian Empire - Just a shit show, no other words for it.

4. Japanese Empire - atrocities, chemical warfare, bio warfare. POW's, Kamikazes. They had it all.

5. Toss up, can't decide between Italian, Dutch, French, American, German, British, Ottoman, Spanish and Portuguese. Maybe Portuguese, they did little for their colonies and it's got to be pretty bad when the Spanish say they were terrible to natives by Spanish Empire standards of the time.

Italians- a lovely set of atrocities and chemical weapons use in Ethiopia. Did SFA for the natives
Dutch- fought a war complete with atrocities post WW2 when others were attempting to decolonize
Americans-Talk about eager, instigated two wars to get an Empire, less oppressive than many I suppose
Germans- some "lovely" work in SWA
British- Concentration camps in South Africa, planned starvation in India, probably less exploitative than some
Ottomans- see Armenian history
Spain- see gold, take gold, slaughter those opposing taking gold
Portugal- see above
France- fought bitter post WW2 colonial wars pathetically trying to hold on
Russian-lets start with state sanction pogroms and move on from there, milder than many though. They only exiled their opponents, not generally torturing and shooting them en mass like Mr Lenin and Stalin etc

My list in response [post 1900]:
1. Nazi empire
2. Japanese empire
3. Russian empire [for non-imperialist and incompetent reasons]
4. Soviet empire [less evil than most of you thought personally, but quite cruel]
[You can mix Russian and Soviet if you like.]
5. Italian empire [fascist and cruel, but less imperialism]
6. Zionism [if it counts as imperialism, see the ideological consequences to Palestinians]
7. China [Qing Dynasty failures, Maoism and Chinese imperialism.]
8. Ottoman Empire [atrocities against Eastern Christians]
9. Belgian Empire [Congo atrocities]
10. Portuguese Empire [see their deeds in the Portuguese colonial wars]
11 and 12. British and French Empires [if you think quantity is also an issue, it will be higher, lower if quality is the issue]
13 German Empire [for African, warmongering and Eastern European deeds; although applicable for the above]
14 American [governed] empire [see the empires above, if 'American imperialism' includes military actions, it will be higher on the list]
15 Dutch Empire [Indonesia]
16 Austria-Hungary and successor empires [for less severe issues]
17 Australian Empire [Oceania and reduced Aboriginal actions compared with 19th century.]
18/19 Brazil or Spain [for local and African imperialism and fascism; Brazil wasn't too imperialist while Spain lost its colonies]
20 Balkan imperialism [except Yugoslavia, see no. 16]
21 Danish Empire [not very bad, Norwegian and Swedish colonies are too few and minor to consider]

 

[Simon]

The original post does appear to have little in the way of alternate history to it and look rather suspiciously like an attempt to get around the banning of polls in Chat where it would be better suited.

That aside the obvious answer to the question is of course the French Empire, it was full of the French after all!

 

[Booster Gold]

Much as I love Britain, their empire has to be the worst because it killed the most people. But after 1900, once they dropped the laissez-faire genocide, the "honour" goes to the Nazis.

 

[Intransigent Southerner]

How exactly is the Chinese Empire worse than the Portuguese or British one?

 

[Derek Pullem]

Much as I love Britain, their empire has to be the worst because it killed the most people. But after 1900, once they dropped the laissez-faire genocide, the "honour" goes to the Nazis.

Not even close.

China in its wars, rebellions and famines was much much worse than Britain.

 

[Tom Colton]

How exactly is the Chinese Empire worse than the Portuguese or British one?

They didn't use the Latin alphabet! The most grievous sin of all!!

 

[zeppelinair]

Not even close.

China in its wars, rebellions and famines was much much worse than Britain.

But how is that genocide?

 

[Roman E]

1. Third Reich - Almost universally regarded as pure evil. Ran the most organized campaign of murder ever conceived, waged aggressive war and Generalplan Ost speaks for itself.

2. Japanese Empire - Some constituent parts of this empire (Kwantung Army) are just as bad as the Nazis, but not nearly as organized.

3. Soviet Union - The Soviet Union reigned longer than the Third Reich, confined most of its damage (though certainly not all) to its own people and had bouts of (relative) sanity during the Khrushchev Thaw and Perestroika/Glasnost. Gets slightly positive mention for doing the most damage to #1 on the list.

 

[Booster Gold]

Not even close.

China in its wars, rebellions and famines was much much worse than Britain.

Depends on how we're counting. If you count the entire Chinese empire from the beginning of history, then sure. If we're just counting "modern times", i.e. 1800 onwards, or continuous political units, I think you'll find the famines in the Raj were the worst in history and just as ideologically motivated as anything Stalin or Mao did. After 1900, the Brits got their s**t together, abandoned the laissez-faire horseshit, and improved and the Chinese went through the worst Maoist excesses.

And that's just India, it doesn't include the rest of the empire. And it's a bit of a stretch to equate the Chinese empire with the People's Republic. So yeah.

 

[Roland Traveler]

1. Japan. While the Nazis were merely genocidal against, oh let's say 90% of the Earth's population, the Japanese were racist against everyone. Outright murderous, if not genocidal, against China, made conditions the SE Asia rivaling concentration camps on a larger scale, a training regimen that involved bayoneting prisoners or getting the shit beat out of you, followed by more punishment if you cried, canabalism, comfort women, forcing entire populations to commit suicide instead of facing occupation, and a willingness to see their entire country destroyed if it meant one more dead American places them solidly into first place for me.
2. They're Nazis. Close to Japan because of how revolting they are, but scale makes them lesser to Japan. Had they had a few more years, maybe. It would depend on Japan's actions.
3. Soviet Union. Stalinism and the Holdomor. Need I say more?
4. Ottomans. Armenia, Assyria, and general incompetence. Throw in the occasional religious fanatic and you have a pretty bad empire.
5. Belgian Congo. One bullet one hand, huh? Basket of rubber or hand, huh? Over a million dead due to corporate greed? Wow. I'm shocked that these guys are at the bottom of this list.

But how is that genocide?

Obviously China is suicidal. Why else would they make it a tradition of going through civil wars?

 

[Derek Pullem]

Depends on how we're counting. If you count the entire Chinese empire from the beginning of history, then sure. If we're just counting "modern times", i.e. 1800 onwards, or continuous political units, I think you'll find the famines in the Raj were the worst in history and just as ideologically motivated as anything Stalin or Mao did. After 1900, the Brits got their s**t together, abandoned the laissez-faire horseshit, and improved and the Chinese went through the worst Maoist excesses.

And that's just India, it doesn't include the rest of the empire. And it's a bit of a stretch to equate the Chinese empire with the People's Republic. So yeah.

Don't really want to play the numbers game but in 19th century alone China suffered more than 100 million dead from famines.

The Bengal famine of 1943 was as bad as any in India in the 19th century so political theory has less to do with casualties than incompetence and war

 

[Booster Gold]

Don't really want to play the numbers game but in 19th century alone China suffered more than 100 million dead from famines.

The British played a hand in Chinese political instability with their opium wars, and said opium trade also played a hand in the great Bengal famine of 1770, which is admittedly outside the parameters I set, but still. I'm also pretty sure that the British involved themselves in several of those deadly rebellions which led to famines in the Qing empire.

I have to say that 100 million figure for China seems extraordinarily high for a population that was 300 million in 1800 and 450 million in 1900.

The Bengal famine of 1943 was as bad as any in India in the 19th century so political theory has less to do with casualties than incompetence and war

...what? Because one famine was caused by war, incompetence, and Winston Churchill's racism, the fact that Viceroy Lytton deliberately refused to aid the starving a century earlier is irrelevant? I'm genuinely confused by your reasoning.

 

[ElectricSheepNo54]

On the list my top five would easily be:
1. Nazi Germany
Expansionist, and planned genocide on a scale never really seen before.

2. Japanese Empire during WWII
Too much things to mention, really.

3. Belgian Empire
Simply for the Congo.

4. Stalin-era Soviet Union
Gulags and sheet oppression.

5. German Empire (pre-1918)
Committed terrible atrocities in German South West Africa.

Though, while not really comparable to the states above, there are some other empires / countries post-1900 that could go in the poll. One of these I would pick out would be Sweden, for all the eugenics and racial biology research stuff that led to things such as the sterilisation of many Sami people.

 

[CalBear]

DO NOT try to evade the Chat limitation on polls by dragging them into post 1900.