Worst Case Scenario (for Axis): Operation Barbarossa

While in OTL, of course, they stayed away...?
Bulgaria didn't fight. Hungary was half hearted until the Russians were at their door in 1944. They totally stopped their participation in 1943. Overt Russian mega aggression guarantees maximum participation from the get go.
 
Bulgaria didn't fight. Hungary was half hearted until the Russians were at their door in 1944. They totally stopped their participation in 1943. Overt Russian mega aggression guarantees maximum participation from the get go.

the issue is that all those countries were overall not prepared for an offensive war against an enemy like the red army far from their countries. if we take the more inolved one otl, the romanian army, one could even argue than a more limited involvement, with less but better equiped and supplied troops could have gone better for the axis, as the german command tended to ask to much of them...
 
Bulgaria didn't fight. Hungary was half hearted until the Russians were at their door in 1944. They totally stopped their participation in 1943. Overt Russian mega aggression guarantees maximum participation from the get go.

Bulgaria didn't fight on OTL and wouldn't fight in this scenario. They'll do their best to remind Uncle Ivan they are old friends.

Hungary sent the cream of its army including most of its mobile assets in July 1941; which is what it could realistically send, given that it wanted to keep most of its army guarding its hated enemy - Romania.
Actually, Hungary siding with the Germans is no automatic outcome, especially if something as big as a Soviet attack on Romania takes place before the final German strong-arming of the Hungarians. Indeed,
in this scenario, it's entirely possible that Teleki does not commit suicide, remains in office, and keeps going with his anti-Romanian and anti-German stance. It's even possible that the Hungarians stab the Romanians in the back in Transylvania as they are invaded by the Soviets in Bessarabia. It would be unlikely, given the German threat, but not impossible; at the very least, they wash their hands of their hated enemy's difficulties, far from jumping in on their side to help them.

Romania itself, of course, will fight - just as per OTL, it's not as if in OTL they spared themselves. Ditto Finland. Slovakia will do what Germany says. Italy sent a corps in OTL and will do the same.
 
Could a Soviet invasion of Romania urge Vichy France to become an Axis member? Red Scare et al.
Even though French Tanks had their flaws they were on par/better than the T26/BT series which made up the bulk of Soviet tank forces in 1941.
Even if France does not actively participate, merely supplying tanks to eastern Europe Axis Allies could provide a significant boost to combat power.
 
the issue is that all those countries were overall not prepared for an offensive war against an enemy like the red army far from their countries. if we take the more inolved one otl, the romanian army, one could even argue than a more limited involvement, with less but better equiped and supplied troops could have gone better for the axis, as the german command tended to ask to much of them...
Not really. A more active participation is helpful even in rearguard duties and reserves, which took dozens of divisions.
 
Not really. A more active participation is helpful even in rearguard duties and reserves, which took dozens of divisions.

In that sense, totally true, i was thinking more in the risk of using them in the front line without proper support, or that they missdirect the okh and hitler in believing that even more ambitious (than otl) operations were possible because thay had more strenght on paper.
 
Could a Soviet invasion of Romania urge Vichy France to become an Axis member? Red Scare et al.
Even though French Tanks had their flaws they were on par/better than the T26/BT series which made up the bulk of Soviet tank forces in 1941.
Even if France does not actively participate, merely supplying tanks to eastern Europe Axis Allies could provide a significant boost to combat power.

Hmm.

Infantry tanks

FCM 36 - Pillbox tank, 2 man crew, no radio, slow, radius of action (70 km) tactical speed 5m/s, gun ineffective beyond 200 meters, armor questionable, ~100 made.
Hotchkiss H35/39 - Pillbox tank, 2 man crew, no radio, slow, radius of action (100 km) tactical speed 5m/s, gun ineffective beyond 200 meters, armor questionable, ~1200 made. While ineffective, at least it ran.
Renault D1 - Pillbox tank, 2 man crew, some had radio, slow, radius of action (70 km) tactical speed 7m/s, gun ineffective beyond 100 meters, armor very questionable, ~1300 made. Horrible tank like most Renault built junk of this era.
Renault D2 - Pillbox tank, 2 man crew, no radio, slow, radius of action (50 km) tactical speed 5m/s, gun ineffective beyond 100 meters, armor very questionable, ~100 made. Horrible tank like most Renault built junk of this era.
Renault NC -Pillbox tank, 2 man crew, no radio, slow, radius of action (40 km) tactical speed 4m/s, gun ineffective beyond 100 meters, armor non-existent, ~20 made. Horrible tank like most Renault built junk of this era.
Renault R35/40 - Pillbox tank, 2 man crew, some radio, slow, radius of action (60 km) tactical speed ~5m/s, gun ineffective beyond 200 meters, armor decent, ~1,500 made. Horrible tank like most Renault built junk of this era.

Comments; Lack of tactical speed, communications capability, tactical radius action made these thin armored paperweights little better than motorized machine gun carriers fit for only police and rear area security duty. the Germans converted some of the junk into SPGs and third rate motorized artillery.

Cavalry tanks

Renault AMC 34 - a garbage tank by Vickers 6 tonne standards, 3 man crew, no radio, tactical speed 10 m/s, gun ineffective at any range, armor thin, ~20 made
Renault AMC 35 - another garbage tank by 1935 British standards, 3 man crew, no radio, tactical speed 8 m/s, gun effective to 200 meters, armor fragile, ~55 made
Renault AMR 33 - No better than a tracked fast scout car, 2 man crew, no radio, tactical speed 8 m/s, machine gun was the decent Reibel, armor nonexistent, 120 total
Renault AMR 35 - same as AMR 33, ~180 made.
SOMUA S35 - only tank worthy of the name. 3 man crew, some had radios, tactical speed 8 m/s, gun ineffective beyond 500 meters, armor shattered or spalled when hit by shot, ~430?

Comments: Aside from the SOMUA a lot of wasted steel.

Assault tanks

Char B1/B1 bis - another garbage tank by any standards though some claim it inspired the M3 Lee/Grant, 4 man crew, tactical speed 3-5 m/s, radio did not work, top gun 200 meters with howitzer in hull about same, armor thick but designed protection scheme poor, ~370 made
FCM 2C -Seriously? 10 made

Comments: the Char B1 is salvageable IF the thing is used as an SPG/semovente. Get rid of the top turret and used the space saved for radios and a commander.

Overall, these tanks are useless for anything but rear area security duty. The Somua could be used as a radio equipped mobile command post or as a proper tank IF someone could mount a proper 2 man turret with a proper 47 mm gun. How this can be done on that top heavy poj with its too narrow in diameter turret ring is beyond me.

Russians.

BT-2 - machine gun bait. Fast with a door knocker gun, 3 man crew, no radio, tactical speed 10 m/s, gun ineffective at any range, armor thin, ~ 650 made
BT-5 - more machine gun bait, much better gun, 3 man crew, no radio, tactical speed 10 m/s, gun effective to 500 meters, armor thin, ~ 1800 made
BT-7 - Much the best BT, good 47 mm gun, 3 man crew, no radio, tactical speed 10 m/s, gun effective to 500 meters, armor thin but effective, ~ 4800 made

Comments: Good tanks for Russia, better tanks if equipped with radios, crews trained and used in a combined arms manner. Undeserved reputation as unreliable and easy meat. Khalkin Gol showed what they could do, if handled properly.

T-26 - Vickers 6 tonne clone with a decent gun, no radio and lots of them, no radio, tactical speed 5 m/s, gun effective to 500 meters, armor thin but effective, lots of them available (about 10,000).

Comments: It is a Vickers 6 tonne with a Russian gun.

Overall the Russians probably have the best tank park outside the Germans in 1940. French tanks bring nothing to the party, or the Germans would have used them more in the east. Russian tanks were misused until about 1943.

Of all the French machines, the Somuas and the Char B1s (about 800 machines) are the only ones east front qualified. They need...

Removal of the top turret.
Radio sets.
A better hull gun with limited casemate traverse arrangements, (Char B1s)
Kept away from Russian armor.
Some kind of DP gun for the Somua that will allow for some limited use as an SPG.

sau40_3.jpg


From here.(^^^)

McP
 
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