Worst 10 officers of each WWII power.

You cannot write intelligently about the IJN and not know Sun Tzu. They died by him as well as their misinterpretation of Mahan.
I am isolating my response to your comments in this thread and this thread only.

Everybody misinterepts everybody who writes at some point or another. The Germans Imperial General Staff misintrepted Clausewitz (quite badly). The Japanese misinterpreted Sun Tsu. Sun Tsu wrote extensively about how to gain victory - usually in such a way that the enemy was defeated by craft rather than mere might.
 
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I am isolating my response to your comments in this thread and this threat only.

Everybody misinterepts everybody who writes at some point or another. The Germans Imperial General Staff misintrepted Clausewitz (quite badly). The Japanese misinterpreted Sun Tsu. Sun Tsu wrote extensively about how to gain victory - usually in such a way that the enemy was defeated by craft rather than mere might.
Let me be BLUNT.

The Americans of the WWII generation did not exactly understand what the Japanese were about until postwar. They, the Americans, had their own thoughts about indirect means and psychological warfare (Imposing your will into the enemy's mind before conflict is ever joined. See below about ADM Kalbfus), but that thought was in turn based on bad sociology, bad anthropology and a slue of "Japan experts" such as Ruth Benedict who had no more clue about how British-trained the Japanese admiralty was in thought and METHOD for example; than they did the back side of the moon.

Add to those "science" mistakes made, that Japanese culture was in reality a post feudal and splinter culture off China very similar to how the American one was off Western Europe when it was stripped down to its components. The similarity between "samurai" and "cowboy" was astonishing. They mirrored each other too closely functionally when in contact which is a reason so much of their military interactions were so decidedly racist and bloody and non-compromising.

In their military thinking, when the Japanese thought of Sun Tzu at all (rarely), they visualized indirect means, deception, convergence to the objective and elegance and symmetry in planning in mechanistic terms. They assumed that if they planned their moves properly, the enemy would go where they steered him and victory was thus attained. That is not Sun Tzu. Sun Tzu wrote "one must prepare [the battlespace] preferably in the enemy's mind, but prepare it physically as well, so that when the fight does come, victory is pre-ordained and nothing is left to chance." The Japanese missed that one and apparently from how I read what you write, you "might" have missed it, too. The Japanese did not think Schwerpunkt (重点 or zong dian) when they thought Sun Tzu or Focus on the Objective. He actually did write about it before there was a Clauswitz.

By strange coincidence the USN with "objective oriented mission planning.".. did stumble into Sun Tzu. ADM Kalbfus emphasized clear objective based planning through a three stage logic tree and emphasized a focus on "the fundamental principle for the attainment of an end," which is very much Sun Tzu and not exactly Clauswitz, either.

You can see this happen in stark relief at MIDWAY.

Yamamoto tried to steer PACFLT into a showdown fight and moved his fleets around Midway Atoll in the expectation the Americans would sail into his convergence. Nimitz, did not formally know Sun Tzu, but as he had been trained, he prepared the battlespace pre-battle as a TRAP because he knew the IJN would employ the "arms of the bear" method (Rochefort) and that formula could be exploited against Yamamoto.

Hence Yamamoto makes the Worst of the Japanese list and Nimitz makes the Best of the Americans list.

Sun Tzu... USN style.

McP.
 
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Oh, I agree that the Japanese misinterpreted Sun Tzu. The Americans didn't care about Sun Tzu because they were a much more mechanical culture - apply the right amount of men/material at the right spot and victory would follow. The point is that Sun Tzu wrote about how to achieve victory without having to apply anything other than the will of the commander on his enemy.

My point was that you think like a Westerner. To you, there is only way to achieve victory. To others, there are alternative methods which work just as well.
 
Oh, I agree that the Japanese misinterpreted Sun Tzu. The Americans didn't care about Sun Tzu because they were a much more mechanical culture - apply the right amount of men/material at the right spot and victory would follow. The point is that Sun Tzu wrote about how to achieve victory without having to apply anything other than the will of the commander on his enemy.

My point was that you think like a Westerner. To you, there is only way to achieve victory. To others, there are alternative methods which work just as well.
Did you not read what I wrote? (^^^) How about go through those cites I gave you and read what I wrote about the VIETNAMESE?

Citation from No War in Europe: Does Japan still launch the Pacific Campaign? (Quoting ME.)

…...………………...………………

Look, Ho Chi Minh was an "evil" man. But unlike Stalin, maybe Mao, and other examples of human evil (Pol Pot, Idi Amin and Robert McNamara), he had his goal/vision and he was efficient about it.

Example? He knew his nation would be bombed when it challenged the United States and that his nation would suffer horribly. His air generals started planning for that aspect of the war in 1958 when they sent carefully screened candidates to the soviet union to learn everything the Russians knew about air defense against a dominant enemy air force. Their success was in the returning trained cadres understanding that against the Americans, the Russian model would not work. A total war bombing campaign would reduce North Vietnam to ruins inside 6 weeks. THAT is what the students told Ho and his air generals. They had to try something else. So they added a propaganda element to HOBBLE American airpower by portraying an absolute air campaign as a war crime before the world community. It worked.

This was much the same as the rest of the Vietnamese war strategy. Attack the American mind via wearing down the will of the enemy. That is not so much Mao Zedong, who stole it from Sun Tzu, as it is Clausewitz. Find the enemy's strategic center and impose your will upon it. Television became a weapon of war. That is PURE unadulterated political/military genius.
 
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Did you not read what I wrote? (^^^) How about go through those cites I gave you and read what I wrote about the VIETNAMESE?
I don't care what you've written about anybody other than what you have written in this thread. I am commenting on your comments here, now. You however, seem to think I should be reading what you've written about in other threads. I have no idea why. You stand or you die by what you're writing now.
 
Calling Dirlewanger a criminal is a legitimate insult to criminals. And I'm not joking.


Guy made Ted Bundy look like the Pope. Pretty much the only thing remotely positive I can say about him is that he was absurdly hard to kill. Guy got shot or severely wounded like twenty different times before he finally got taken down.

Might just be a literal case of the Devil just not wanting to have to deal with the sick fuck.
As I said, he's my pick for the worst human ever. If I ever get back to writing Judea Rising, I've got a highly karmic death in mind for him.
 
That is a Godwin, but to address it?

Look, Ho Chi Minh was an "evil" man. But unlike Stalin, maybe Mao, and other examples of human evil (Pol Pot, Idi Amin and Robert McNamara), he had his goal/vision and he was efficient about it.

Example? He knew his nation would be bombed when it challenged the United States and that his nation would suffer horribly. His air generals started planning for that aspect of the war in 1958 when they sent carefully screened candidates to the soviet union to learn everything the Russians knew about air defense against a dominant enemy air force. Their success was in the returning trained cadres understanding that against the Americans, the Russian model would not work. A total war bombing campaign would reduce North Vietnam to ruins inside 6 weeks. THAT is what the students told Ho and his air generals. They had to try something else. So they added a propaganda element to HOBBLE American airpower by portraying an absolute air campaign as a war crime before the world community. It worked.

This was much the same as the rest of the Vietnamese war strategy. Attack the American mind via wearing down the will of the enemy. That is not so much Mao Zedong, who stole it from Sun Tzu, as it is Clausewitz. Find the enemy's strategic center and impose your will upon it. Television became a weapon of war. That is PURE unadulterated political/military genius.
I don't care what you've written about anybody other than what you have written in this thread. I am commenting on your comments here, now. You however, seem to think I should be reading what you've written about in other threads. I have no idea why. You stand or you die by what you're writing now.
I see that we do not agree. Fine. I tell you, that your argument died here when you claimed I did not understand Sun Tzu and implied you did.

"“Do not engage an enemy more powerful than you. And if it is unavoidable and you do have to engage, then make sure you engage it on your terms, not on your enemy’s terms.” – Sun Tzu"

Let's see if I can pick a specific nation's 10 leaders that made that mistake?

Japan.

10 individuals who ignored the above quote and fell into American traps or were easily defeated.

1. Tojo. Oil embargo. He should have seen that one coming after he authorized the Indochina operation to take it over from Vichy France.
2. Hyaakutake. CARTWHEEL. Wrong target, wrong threat axis and wrong objective.
3. Fukodome. Halsey's ambush of his Special Attack Force RIKKO off Taiwan. ( A real beauty that one. Never take any bait an American offers.)
4. Yamamoto. Coral Sea, Midway, Solomon Islands, and finally his own death. Eyes wide open and headed into one ambush after another ambush. Never learned.
5. Takagi, (Braindead Takeo) lucked out at Java Sea, Failed at 4th Fleet, failed at 6th Fleet and seems to have never understood that brute force without a plan against the USN is kind of pointless.
6. Nagumo. ("If ignorant both of your enemy and yourself, you are certain to be in peril.") That defines the ditherer of Pearl Harbor, Midway, and how Nagumo died on Saipan.
7. Kurita. ("The principle on which to manage an army is to set up one standard of courage which all must reach.") Well he flunked that one at Samar... TWICE. First at the moment of decision, he ran for his life. Then ("On the day they are ordered out to battle, your [enemy's] soldiers may weep, those sitting up bedewing their garments, and those lying down letting the tears run down their cheeks. But let them once be brought to bay, and they will display the courage of a Chu or a Kuei.") TAFFY 3 was the bunch he cornered and he got what he deserved, the yutz. Also forgot the one about leaving a cornered enemy an escape route through which they will pass and be killed. (The German example is the Falaise Gap. SAMAR is the American one.)
8. Horii. Kokoda Trail. That general forgot "“There are roads which must not be followed, armies which must not be attacked, towns which must not be besieged, positions which must not be contested, commands of the sovereign which must not be obeyed.” Also forgot what Sun Tzu specifically said about marching over ground which the general does not know.
9. Matsuoka. Not exactly Sun Tzu, but his failures fall under Sun Tzu's "Know Your ENEMY" maxims. Specifically Americans... "“You're in America now," ... "Our idea of diplomacy is showing up with a gun in one hand and a sandwich in the other and asking which you'd prefer.” Attributed to Jim Butcher of "The Dresden Files".
10. Suzuki, if possible a bigger fool than Matsuoka. Chose his words poorly when he "Ignored the Potsdam Declaration". In other words, he tried to appear strong, before his fellow Japanese, in a situation where his American enemy had offered him the sandwich and thereby earned the gun.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
It’s not though, there were other options. As I said before, the Japanese were willing to surrender if the Emperor was given immunity and he was. We’re never going to agree on this. Not only will I never see Mers-el Kebir as morally justifiable, but I don’t even think that it was legally justifiable under the laws that the Axis Powers were held to.
No. They most decidedly were not willing to surrender prior to the use of two special weapons, and, perhaps even more importantly, the entry of the Soviet Union into the War. The combined impact of that triple combination allowed a incredibly narrow window for the "peace party" to get the Emperor to agree to the surrender. Even then, had it not been for General Shiziuchi Tanaka's singular actions the IJA coup would have quashed the release of the Imperial Rescript and the war would have continued.

Japanese "surrender" prposals brior to the events of August 6-9, 1945 were, charitably, laughable. They were quite "generous", the Japanese would agree to withdraw from the European colonial areas they had taken during the "Lunge South", provided the European countries granted the colonies immediate independence, recognize the independences of the Philippines (which had already been liberated by U.S. forces), and voluntarily disarm for a limited period of time (which was especially hilarious since U.S. naval and air forces had already done a quite through job of disarming the IJN and both the Naval and Army branches of the Air Force) but with no outside supervision. It would have allowed the Japanese to maintain thewir control of the Mandates, all of which were in U.S. hands, as well has all territory gained prior to 1937, including Korea and Manchukuo, and the Allies would end their embargoes and resume full trade with Japan. No war crime trials, no change in the military dictatorship that controlled Japan, nothing.

It was effectively the deal that Tokyo had planned to offer in late 1942 under their original plans for the Southern Resource Area. The Japanese, in June-early July of 1945 were willing to allow the Allies to give them the victory conditions they expected to gain by winning the war.
 
Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in. Alright. I’ll bite. When I searched for the bok, the first review said said that it was jingoistic. Do you have Hitlers direct quotes?
Trawl through the Wiki page on Operation Sea Lion [sic]. At the foot is a summary of the German administration plan with plenty of attributions, including a quote from von Brauchitsch on the policy of deporting every able-bodied male aged 15-45 to the continent for forced labour. Of course, vB was only the Army C-in-C and official policy would never reflect Hitler's thoughts...

There is plenty of evidence if you care to look.
 
The Art of War is often misunderstood. I think it has to do with the way it's written, the ancient Chinese being pretty open to interpretation. Heck, I'm fluent in Mandarin yet i still wonder about section of the book.
And military strategy books are only ever general guidelines. You have to change your strategy based on all the factors and variables present. It even says that in the Art of War.
 
The Art of War is often misunderstood. I think it has to do with the way it's written, the ancient Chinese being pretty open to interpretation. Heck, I'm fluent in Mandarin yet i still wonder about section of the book.

And military strategy books are only ever general guidelines. You have to change your strategy based on all the factors and variables present. It even says that in the Art of War.
Yes, it does. :cool: Probably the most misunderstood and important Sun Tzu teaches.
 
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Hitler. Stalin. Himmler. Churchill. Paulus.

Hah! MacArthur that's an easy #1
Brereton
Sutherland all for Philippines
Fredendall North Africa
McNair
Adm King, Atlantic
Bradley, indecisive in France
MacKelvie at Normandy
Rupertus at Peleliu
Hodges - Bulge, and afterwards.
Short Pearl Harbor, for worrying about sabotage more than being combat effective
What exactly was wrong with MacArthur? I don't know that much about the guy besides people who choose American Caesar in Kaiserreich are morons.
 
I've been on here for a while, I just know jack shit about Big Mac except he tried to nuke China that one time and he looked dope.

Edit: Oh! And if you let him coup the government in Kaiserreich you're factually wrong and I hope you die a painful death
The best I will say about him, as inventive and original he was on the offensive, was the worst in defending.
His biggest problem was he liked to be surrounded with YesMen and outright Toadies.
 
I've been on here for a while, I just know jack shit about Big Mac except he tried to nuke China that one time and he looked dope.
1. Bribery.
2. Insubordination.
3. Sutherland.
4. Willoughby
5. Clark Field disaster.
6. Chinese at the Yalu River.
7. Curtin.
8. Alamo Force.
9. Eichelberger diaries.
10. Blamey.
11. Filipino mistress.
12. Brereton.

Just type in MacArthur and each one of those as the second entry in a search and watch GOOGLE generate hits. "The Great Thespian" was a very flawed man.
 

33k7

Gone Fishin'
Hitler. Stalin. Himmler. Churchill. Paulus.

What exactly was wrong with MacArthur? I don't know that much about the guy besides people who choose American Caesar in Kaiserreich are morons.
a lot of people do not like him because of his politics and way he handled the Korean War by saying let's nuke China.I think he was a decent General but a bad Supreme Commander

Who was Minister of the Army at the time? Tojo, Hideki. Nishihara took his orders directly from him, not Konoe. Konoe was a figurehead. Hence Tojo. Konoe knew it was suicide.
no he was prime minister it was his responsibility to rain in the military his failures is what caused the War and he knew it
 
Konoe.

no he was prime minister it was his responsibility to rain in the military his failures is what caused the War and he knew it
That is not the way Japan in 1940 actually worked. CRAZY was in season. Tojo was at the heart of it as a member of the IJA "control faction". He was calling the policy.
 
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