World War Z and beyond?

[theclerk]

So humanity doesn't regress to 18th-century tech how? if 1/20th of the human population lives in one city than industrial society likely ceases to exist so A: Either the wiki is wrong or B: Max Brooks can't work out population numbers

It's really the latter. I know people will argue this, and I say this as someone that did enjoy World War Z, but Max Brooks isn't a great writer and has issues trying to fully explore a realistic take on WWZ and the shitshow that followed.

Plenty of people have argued this, especially the Battle of Yonkers, but I did just attribute to the fact that Max Brooks was also trying to write an entertaining story...which he did accomplish. World War Z is a fun read. But if you ever asked me if its a great book, I'd fucking laugh.

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

So humanity doesn't regress to 18th-century tech how? if 1/20th of the human population lives in one city than industrial society likely ceases to exist so A: Either the wiki is wrong or B: Max Brooks can't work out population numbers

I'm going more with @theclerk's view, that Max Brooks messed up with population numbers and couldn't get everything right. But yeah, they're keeping the current century's level of technology (I'd guess that they're around late 20th century-levels of technology, so like late 1990s/early 2000s).

It's also a possibility that the world population is maybe half a billion rather than 200 million.

 

[dianaswordofsappho]

Personally I always thought it was 1.5 bill tbh

 

[Historyman 14]

I doubt the world would be so 'united' so to speak. We talked about this with @Selvetrica's ATL Cuba map, about the US's western holdings fall, making it a far harder time to retake the mainland, and gives a lot less power to their plan, and allowing new states to rise outside the USA. (And allowing Cuba to run wild.)

@TheScottishMongol also had this fun idea.

One other aspect of the story I'd like to see is where they talked about how the Europeans dumped their criminals in zombie-infested territory...but then it turns out that criminals are usually extremely resourceful and ruthlessly pragmatic, and enough of them didn't just survive but thrive to the point where the Europeans had to redraw some of their borders in order to accommodate for the new warlord states. You could get pretty creative with that.

 

[Selvetrica]

I doubt the world would be so 'united' so to speak.

That is something I noticed with a lot of WWZ maps that I tried to avoid. They have these large space filling empires(especially in Africa). Which I do not think would be the case. With so many small pockets of safe zones being basically alone for years or decades I would think you would see a strong resurgence of regionalism. This would also be tied to just the fact that most populations would be tired in the post war world. Most people just would not see the benefit of fighting other people for a while unless they are under an expansionist ideology(Example the Holy Russian Empire) when there is so much more to do. In Europe for example if you have a couple safe zones that were originally ran by criminals and are transitioning into a nation in the post war and can defend themselves from you. Why go to the trouble of trying to fight your way in. Why open the Pandora box now when it will just lead to problems. Almost every nation in this world has lost a lot of people and land. You can work on getting your cards back in order and deal with the problems of these little countries at another date.
That is not to say thought that there would be no unifying at all. Places where multiple nations are defending in close proximity to one another could lead to a brotherhood mentality forming. One area I would think you would see it would be the Alps where you have Italians, Germans, French, Swiss, and Austrians all escaping to these mountains together would require a lot of cooperation from these countries. In that area it would not be surprising if a surviving EU or EU like nation is formed in the Alps.
Other possible areas would be the Scandinavian area with the Norwegian and Swedish, Jutland with Danish and German, Chile and Argentina, and Canada and Us in the Western zone.

 

[Historyman 14]

That is something I noticed with a lot of WWZ maps that I tried to avoid. They have these large space filling empires(especially in Africa). Which I do not think would be the case. With so many small pockets of safe zones being basically alone for years or decades I would think you would see a strong resurgence of regionalism. This would also be tied to just the fact that most populations would be tired in the post war world. Most people just would not see the benefit of fighting other people for a while unless they are under an expansionist ideology(Example the Holy Russian Empire) when there is so much more to do. In Europe for example if you have a couple safe zones that were originally ran by criminals and are transitioning into a nation in the post war and can defend themselves from you. Why go to the trouble of trying to fight your way in. Why open the Pandora box now when it will just lead to problems. Almost every nation in this world has lost a lot of people and land. You can work on getting your cards back in order and deal with the problems of these little countries at another date.


That is not to say thought that there would be no unifying at all. Places where multiple nations are defending in close proximity to one another could lead to a brotherhood mentality forming. One area I would think you would see it would be the Alps where you have Italians, Germans, French, Swiss, and Austrians all escaping to these mountains together would require a lot of cooperation from these countries. In that area it would not be surprising if a surviving EU or EU like nation is formed in the Alps.
Other possible areas would be the Scandinavian area with the Norwegian and Swedish, Jutland with Danish and German, Chile and Argentina, and Canada and Us in the Western zone.

This we actually talked about something very much like it in Miscellaneous Fallout-verse, of Switzerland being the home of a European Commonwealth rump state, dominated by the French, Germans, Italians, and native Swiss, and becomes a multicultural microcosm of the former EC after the Great War. (See here.)

Same for a new 'United Kingdom' of Sweden-Norway and a Pomerania so to speak with Denmark and North Germany, and the others.

This what World War Z should have done; Greater focus on regionalism and new national identities being born.

 

[Historyman 14]

@Joshua Ben Ari , what say you?

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

@Joshua Ben Ari , what say you?

Well, the book talks about Great Britain remaining a kingdom (I believe it also mentions that Ireland is united, but I'd have to double check in my copy) and a European Union with Bohemia as a province. So I think there's a mix of both nationalism and regionalism.

I could very easily see an Alpine state forming, probably Swiss dominated (the Swiss are all require to have military training iirc) and from there it spreads out to push Zack out of whatever portions of Switzerland that's fallen to zombie control, plus Italy, Germany, Austria, and France. From there, this Alpine state could easily (re)form the European Union in the hopes of mutual cooperation against the threat of Zack in Iceland and Finland, and the threat of the Holy Russian Empire.

I think, in the aftermath of the Zombie War, there is both a resurgence of nationalism and a new birth of regionalism.

 

[Historyman 14]

Well, the book talks about Great Britain remaining a kingdom (I believe it also mentions that Ireland is united, but I'd have to double check in my copy) and a European Union with Bohemia as a province. So I think there's a mix of both nationalism and regionalism.

I could very easily see an Alpine state forming, probably Swiss dominated (the Swiss are all require to have military training iirc) and from there it spreads out to push Zack out of whatever portions of Switzerland that's fallen to zombie control, plus Italy, Germany, Austria, and France. From there, this Alpine state could easily (re)form the European Union in the hopes of mutual cooperation against the threat of Zack in Iceland and Finland, and the threat of the Holy Russian Empire.

I think, in the aftermath of the Zombie War, there is both a resurgence of nationalism and a new birth of regionalism.

Let's be honest, the Holy Russian Empire is going to be everyone's problem. (But also a useful 'rally around the flag' so to speak.)

I wounder if the Alpine State could take Venice. (Blame Yakko's World and this.)

Norway-Sweden: Yo, Swiss, help us out with Iceland.

Since Tibet broke away from China, I wounder if the Chinese Muslims could also bail on China and do their own thing.

I can see South Vietnam breaking away from the North. (I watch Ken Burns Vietnam War, and it talks about the even greater division of North and South thanks in part of the North's actions like destroying ARVN graves and memorials.)

What of Western Canada joining the USA?

Given Greece mountainous geography and islands, I could see a North/South/East thing with it. (Peloponnese, rest of Greece, and islands rule by Crete.)

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

Let's be honest, the Holy Russian Empire is going to be everyone's problem. (But also a useful 'rally around the flag' so to speak.)

Pretty much. A theocratic (and potentially expansionist) Russia that threatens regional stability in Eastern Europe is going to be a country that everyone in Europe fears.

I wounder if the Alpine State could take Venice. (Blame Yakko's World and this.)

It probably could and I could see it as a way to secure convoy routes into the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

Norway-Sweden: Yo, Swiss, help us out with Iceland.

Norway-Sweden is going to be scared shitless of Zack in Iceland and Finland, and the Russians across the Baltic. They're also probably going to be dealing with the massive amount of Icelandic refugees in Norway since the whole island is overrun by Zack.

Since Tibet broke away from China, I wounder if the Chinese Muslims could also bail on China and do their own thing.

Maybe? They might also stick with China in fear of Russian expansionism.

I can see South Vietnam breaking away from the North. (I watch Ken Burns Vietnam War, and it talks about the even greater division of North and South thanks in part of the North's actions like destroying ARVN graves and memorials.)

I think you could see inter-ethnic conflicts, but I'm not sure about a separation of South Vietnam from Vietnam. I'd put it at a 75-25 percent chance of happening.

What of Western Canada joining the USA?

That's not happening. You could have Americans settle in Canada, but Western Canada isn't joining the US. The US took a massive hit with Zack and I don't see them having the political will to take over even more territory. They just got everything east of the Rockies back, I don't see them moving north of the 49th parallel.

Given Greece mountainous geography and islands, I could see a North/South/East thing with it. (Peloponnese, rest of Greece, and islands rule by Crete.)

Greece might survive pretty well, and I could see some Greek expansionism into Cyprus and into the Aegean.

 

[Historyman 14]

It probably could and I could see it as a way to secure convoy routes into the Balkans and Eastern Europe.



Norway-Sweden is going to be scared shitless of Zack in Iceland and Finland, and the Russians across the Baltic. They're also probably going to be dealing with the massive amount of Icelandic refugees in Norway since the whole island is overrun by Zack.



Maybe? They might also stick with China in fear of Russian expansionism.



I think you could see inter-ethnic conflicts, but I'm not sure about a separation of South Vietnam from Vietnam. I'd put it at a 75-25 percent chance of happening.



That's not happening. You could have Americans settle in Canada, but Western Canada isn't joining the US. The US took a massive hit with Zack and I don't see them having the political will to take over even more territory. They just got everything east of the Rockies back, I don't see them moving north of the 49th parallel.


Greece might survive pretty well, and I could see some Greek expansionism into Cyprus and into the Aegean.

Swiss Navy!

Pretty much. One which one they focus on more. Iceland in part of the massive amount of Icelandic refugees, or Finland if only to keep it out of the HRE hands and the land territory.

Eh, true.

Honestly, vets from both sides of the Vietnam War talks about the deep division today in Vietnam and what the North did to try and 'remove' the memory of the South. (As they call it, 'northerization.' This would give some light on it.) . WWZ is going to be South Vietnam rise from the grave. (And they with those odds.) The North would be flooded with Chinese refugees so that would be the chance of the South.

I mean, the US was hit hard, but how do you think Canada fair? How many Canadians was was among the 11 million that went north and died? Or never return home? Or taken over by American refugees? You also have the Western alienation to play with the new wave of nationalism and regionalism. Not join America, but then leaving Eastern Canada (A big 'screw you'.) would be in the cards.

I like that idea. (So Megali Idea is given new life.)

The Balkans could be fill with criminal base warlord states. And given how badly screw up the Freach Army was at retaking Paris, France may have it share of Warlord state, or two. (As well South Germany in the face of Danish-German Pomerania.)

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

Swiss Navy!

Pretty much!

Pretty much. One which one they focus on more. Iceland in part of the massive amount of Icelandic refugees, or Finland if only to keep it out of the HRE hands and the land territory.

I could see a Norway-Sweden led effort to clear Zack out of Iceland and Finland, but it would take a huge multinational effort since both the countries were overrun. I could see Finland being the first if only to clear the whole country of Zack and keep the Russians out. Iceland would be a multinational effort to blockade the island, keep Zack from spreading across the ocean floor, and then do slow sweeps to clear the island.

Eh, true.

I think staying with China (but with some kind of home rule or devolution) would be more possible.

Honestly, vets from both sides of the Vietnam War talks about the deep division today in Vietnam and what the North did to try and 'remove' the memory of the South. (As they call it, 'northerization.' This would give some light on it.) . WWZ is going to be South Vietnam rise from the grave. (And they with those odds.) The North would be flooded with Chinese refugees so that would be the chance of the South.

I'm not sure about another division of Vietnam. WWZ might also cause the Vietnamese people to just band together despite the differences and fight against a common enemy that threatens them all.

I mean, the US was hit hard, but how do you think Canada fair? How many Canadians was was among the 11 million that went north and died? Or never return home? Or taken over by American refugees? You also have the Western alienation to play with the new wave of nationalism and regionalism. Not join America, but then leaving Eastern Canada (A big 'screw you'.) would be in the cards.

From what I understood in the book, it was mostly Americans who fled northwards and died because they underestimated the climate. I could see an increased Western Canadian identity or regional identity but I don't see them joining the United States or separating from Canada itself. There would probably be Americans who went north and never came back home, but it's far more likely they come back home to rebuild their lives in their home country.

I like that idea. (So Megali Idea is given new life.)

A Greco-Cypirot union would pretty damn fun. Greece clearing parts of Turkey and then "forgetting" to return it in the post-war settlement, or even going northwards to clear FYROM and just... keep it.

The Balkans could be fill with criminal base warlord states. And given how badly screw up the Freach Army was at retaking Paris, France may have it share of Warlord state, or two. (As well South Germany in the face of Danish-German Pomerania.)

The Balkans and Eastern Europe would have a lot of warlord states, I feel, though Central and Western Europe (Germany, Austria, parts of France) would have some warlord states.

 

[Gillan1220]

I wonder how the U.S. Navy fared here. Their carriers must have saw action.

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

I wonder how the U.S. Navy fared here. Their carriers must have saw action.

Most were, as far as I remember, used to house and protect civilians. Used to generate power, do fishing (the "whatever, man. Tell it to the whales" bit), and generally protect the living from Zack when they washed ashore.

 

[CJD]

I wonder how the U.S. Navy fared here. Their carriers must have saw action.

The USS Saratoga was used to house an important conference of world leaders where the US president announced that America was going on the offensive. Otherwise the Navy and air force were relegated to supporting the Army's operations because that was the most cost effective set up.

After the war the Navy apparently put together a special diving unit with hi-tech suits for clearing out the remaining underwater zombies.

 

[Kotka]

There's a cool fanfiction that basically states that Iceland, its culture and the few surviving Icelanders are condemned to disappear: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7246528/1/All-Alone

 

[twistedirregular]

There's a cool fanfiction that basically states that Iceland, its culture and the few surviving Icelanders are condemned to disappear: https://www.fanfiction.net/s/7246528/1/All-Alone

Could this occur in other countries?

 

[Joshua Ben Ari]

Could this occur in other countries?

Depends what kind of country. I could see the smaller island countries being in danger of having their country and culture disappear. Smaller countries, like Liechtenstein, Monaco, and Andorra, might also be at risk of their culture being destroyed.

 

[twistedirregular]

Depends what kind of country. I could see the smaller island countries being in danger of having their country and culture disappear. Smaller countries, like Liechtenstein, Monaco, and Andorra, might also be at risk of their culture being destroyed.

Could this also happen to Finland? Wasn't it implied that Finland was a White Zone in the book?

 

[Kotka]

Could this occur in other countries?

Well, probably countries like Haiti, were completely exterminated, and probably entire cultures dissapeared. Monaco for sure was wiped out.

Andorra and Liechtenstein probably have survived, I mean, c'mon, they're basically locked up in the high mountains, probably the Pyrinees and the Alps safe zones included part or the totallity of Andorra and Liechenstein.

Now ... ad the book talks about "Finland" being a white zone, they still talk about it as a country, maybe enough Finns survived in Åland and isolated lake islands. I mean, probably a Finnish Redeker Plan would be to retreat to Åland.