World War One with a surviving Kingdom of France

Let's say for the sake of minimizing butterflies that France did go back to being a monarchy after the Second Empire. How does this affect the First World War?

Is the United States unwilling to get involved with a war where both sides are monarchies (admittedly constitutional monarchies)? How does that change the war? The aftermath?

I'd think the US is likely to still fund the Entente. But without boots on the ground, I don't think Wilson's 14 points are going to be as important as they were in the OTL. The status quo could still be restored, albeit with more autonomy in Austria-Hungary and a king on the throne of a restored Poland (given that the Russian government would still be overthrown and no one wants to give territories to Soviet Russia.
 
US newspapers in August 1914 were very supportive of the Russian monarchy, it was something over there, it was what they did, it was irrelevant in that respect.

Britain is a monarchy, it didn't affect US calculations
 
monarch-butterfly-grass.adapt.945.1.jpg
 
US newspapers in August 1914 were very supportive of the Russian monarchy, it was something over there, it was what they did, it was irrelevant in that respect.

Britain is a monarchy, it didn't affect US calculations
Interesting. I was under the impression that the US had held back because of the totalitarian regime in Russia. And although the UK was a kingdom France was a republic like them. Of course, it's been a long time since grade 12 history class.
 
Interesting. I was under the impression that the US had held back because of the totalitarian regime in Russia. And although the UK was a kingdom France was a republic like them. Of course, it's been a long time since grade 12 history class.

I'm sure it depended on which American you talked to. For Woodrow Wilson and most of his Administration, I think Russia got a pass on account of being British allies.
 
The Kingdom of France might be less friendly to Britain; it could focus on African expansion if supported a lot by folks like Boulanger.
 
The Kingdom of France might be less friendly to Britain; it could focus on African expansion if supported a lot by folks like Boulanger.

As I say, all things CAN shake out the same way, so for the sake of the discussion it seems logical to say they do

Of course, there are just as many ways for them NOT to, like their OTL Republican counterparts, but I don't think the balance of probability is any more in that court than the other
 
As I say, all things CAN shake out the same way, so for the sake of the discussion it seems logical to say they do

Of course, there are just as many ways for them NOT to, like their OTL Republican counterparts, but I don't think the balance of probability is any more in that court than the other
This is why I picked the end of the Franco-Prussian war. Alsace-Lorraine is gone and Germany is a united threat. The Triple Entente is likely to still form opposite the Central Powers. If the ancien regime survived into the 20th Century, who knows what could happen.

So if the Americans still join the war on schedule, does anything change? The French representatives to the peace conference might still be the same or similar. Is the dynamic going to be the same as the OTL? Or is it going to be more like the Congress of Vienna, trying to paste together the old order?
 
France would almost certainly be more conservative in OTL, harkoning back to its Rural and Catholic roots. We might see some revanche over the Alcase-Lorraine territory but not too much like in OTL. What really depends on Royal Frances ability to wage war is if they get a "loyal" opposition like the UK and Labour or Sweden and the Social Democrats
 

CaliGuy

Banned
We might see some revanche over the Alcase-Lorraine territory but not too much like in OTL.
Actually, I doubt that a monarchist France would be particularly willing to give up on a territory which had previously been French for 200 years.

Let's say for the sake of minimizing butterflies that France did go back to being a monarchy after the Second Empire. How does this affect the First World War?

Is the United States unwilling to get involved with a war where both sides are monarchies (admittedly constitutional monarchies)? How does that change the war? The aftermath?

I'd think the US is likely to still fund the Entente. But without boots on the ground, I don't think Wilson's 14 points are going to be as important as they were in the OTL. The status quo could still be restored, albeit with more autonomy in Austria-Hungary and a king on the throne of a restored Poland (given that the Russian government would still be overthrown and no one wants to give territories to Soviet Russia.
If France gets a monarchy in the early 1870s, it is probably going to be a British-style constitutional monarchy (since, after so many revolutions, the French certainly weren't going to agree to having their Kind be semi-absolutist). Since the British constitutional monarchy didn't bother the U.S. during World War I in our TL, I strongly doubt that the French constitutional monarchy will bother the U.S. during World War I in this TL.

Sure, but after the Franco-Prussian War, the dynamics for the European alliance systems as well as for World War I was already being set. Sure, the spark might be different, but by the early 1870s, Wilhelm II, Nicholas II, et cetera were already born.
 
Sure, but after the Franco-Prussian War, the dynamics for the European alliance systems as well as for World War I was already being set. Sure, the spark might be different, but by the early 1870s, Wilhelm II, Nicholas II, et cetera were already born.
Kaiser Frederick could easily have avoided dying 99 days into his term by not smoking nearly as much. Nicholas could've been murdered in Japan 1891. Could've seen much cooler heads dominate during the era, Britain and Germany stay on cordial terms, Russia not bleed in the Far East for nothing. A major war was likely but not to the extent of dragging in EVERY major power.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
Kaiser Frederick could easily have avoided dying 99 days into his term by not smoking nearly as much.

Yes, but I don't see how exactly a surviving French monarchy changes this.

Nicholas could've been murdered in Japan 1891.

True; however, it would make a decisive hand in St. Petersburg to change Russia's foreign policies.

Could've seen much cooler heads dominate during the era, Britain and Germany stay on cordial terms, Russia not bleed in the Far East for nothing. A major war was likely but not to the extent of dragging in EVERY major power.

What you're saying could be true if some major European leaders are assassinated between 1870 and 1914; however, if no one who survived in our TL gets assassinated, then the possibility for significant change from our TL over the short term significantly diminishes.
 
I was about to go on to the peace treaties with the consensus that the war will likely run out the same way. But then I remembered the Sixtus Affair. Karl I's attempt at a separate peace failed because France and Britain were unwilling to pressure Italy to give up it's claims to Austrian territory.

Is France going to act differently with a royalist government? Surely the French king is going to feel more of a solidarity with the Austrian emperor than the French president would, but is it enough? What would France's relationship with Italy be in TTL?
 

CaliGuy

Banned
I was about to go on to the peace treaties with the consensus that the war will likely run out the same way. But then I remembered the Sixtus Affair. Karl I's attempt at a separate peace failed because France and Britain were unwilling to pressure Italy to give up it's claims to Austrian territory.

Is France going to act differently with a royalist government? Surely the French king is going to feel more of a solidarity with the Austrian emperor than the French president would, but is it enough? What would France's relationship with Italy be in TTL?
To be honest, I don't think that a royalist government in France have acted any differently. After all, in addition to the fact that Italy is also a monarchy, monarchs tend to have their country's best interests at heart. In this case, this means allying with Italy and supporting its claims on Austro-Hungarian territory.

Indeed, it is worth noting that even an absolute monarch such as Russian Tsar Alexander III can ally with a republic (France) against his fellow monarchies in Germany and Austria-Hungary when it feels that it would be in the interests of his country to do so.
 
To be honest, I don't think that a royalist government in France have acted any differently. After all, in addition to the fact that Italy is also a monarchy, monarchs tend to have their country's best interests at heart. In this case, this means allying with Italy and supporting its claims on Austro-Hungarian territory.

Indeed, it is worth noting that even an absolute monarch such as Russian Tsar Alexander III can ally with a republic (France) against his fellow monarchies in Germany and Austria-Hungary when it feels that it would be in the interests of his country to do so.
So the Kingdom of France isn't going to mind replacing the Austrian and German Empires with a collection of republics? Given that they'd know France almost established a Third Republic in TTL, I would have thought that they wouldn't want republics on their doorstep to give French republicans ideas.
 

CaliGuy

Banned
So the Kingdom of France isn't going to mind replacing the Austrian and German Empires with a collection of republics? Given that they'd know France almost established a Third Republic in TTL, I would have thought that they wouldn't want republics on their doorstep to give French republicans ideas.
Britain didn't mind this in our TL and it is worth noting that countries such as Romania and Serbia were monarchies even after the end of World War I. Indeed, I even think that the original plan for Czechoslovakia was to make it a monarchy--a plan that collapsed once Russia had its revolutions.
 
If we're assuming a monarchy in France after the Second Empire, the Third Republic either transitioning directly to the Orleanist line or picking first the Comte de Chambord then picking an Orleanist king, we are definitely going to have a constitutional monarchy on the British model. The Second Empire was arguably in the process of becoming just that sort of regime before 1870, and the previous century of French political history made it difficult to imagine a ruling French monarch trying to undermine the legislative body and the popular will.

The executive may well have been stronger, I suppose, but much stronger?
 
Top