well let´s see WW3 develop.
cant ardly wait for te next update, and i´m subscriving.
cant ardly wait for te next update, and i´m subscriving.World War III in May 1946
- Thread starter Hairog
- Start date
It will. One of the usual stumbling blocks of any "what if" concerning WWIII is the fact that the Soviets had no real answer for our strategic bombing capabilities until the late 50s and by then both sides had the atomic bomb and war was (hopefully) unthinkable.
So most alternate history story lines end pretty quickly with the argument that the US and Britain would just hold the line and bomb em back to the Stone Age.
From what I've been able to discover there is a lot of disinformation about our capabilities in producing and deliverying the numbers of atomic bombs we needed to accomplish this feat. They were very hard to produce, assemble and deliver.
I contend that if the right person placed in the right position could do some advanced planning the world might be a different place. That's what I want to explore with your all of your help.
I need comments and feedback. All are welcome to help me explore this scenario.
The Beginning
May 2nd, 1946
05:42 hours
Advanced Signal Corps Station
West Germany
Sorry to wake you sir but we have multiple boggies coming in from the East.
Yes sir I agree it probably is the Soviets returning to their duty stations in East Germany from the May Day Parade in Moscow. I apologize for bothering you and under normal circumstances I won't have called. If you remember sir the general orders we received about the threat of a Soviet surprise attack sometime in May? Well sir the trouble is that I estimate that there are a whole hell of a lot of more returning aircraft than left.
I would estimate that there are over 10 times more. They don't have the landing fields for all those planes under normal circumstances.
Yes sir we checked the calibration on the SCR-584 and it is working just fine. No sir I haven't been drinking. Yes sir I will await further orders.
Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLz1qFzoQ70
May 2nd, 1946
05:42 hours
Advanced Signal Corps Station
West Germany
Sorry to wake you sir but we have multiple boggies coming in from the East.
Yes sir I agree it probably is the Soviets returning to their duty stations in East Germany from the May Day Parade in Moscow. I apologize for bothering you and under normal circumstances I won't have called. If you remember sir the general orders we received about the threat of a Soviet surprise attack sometime in May? Well sir the trouble is that I estimate that there are a whole hell of a lot of more returning aircraft than left.
I would estimate that there are over 10 times more. They don't have the landing fields for all those planes under normal circumstances.
Yes sir we checked the calibration on the SCR-584 and it is working just fine. No sir I haven't been drinking. Yes sir I will await further orders.
Youtube video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLz1qFzoQ70
You’re right CalBear.
I was amazed a how fast and complete the demobilization was in just 6 months. That's what got the whole thing going for me was reading a book that talked about the real possibility that this scenario would really happen and was fully expected to happen.
The urge to demobilize was so great that there were actual riots over it in the military. They had done their bit and wanted to go home... and they did by the millions.
The fascinating part to me is that they did it fully expecting the Soviets to attack and knowing that they would be overrun in weeks with the troops that they had left. Plan after plan I have read concede that fact. So in real life they bluffed and won.
But now for the rest of the story.
Blair152
Banned
A Damned Fine War
This book should be right up your alley. The title says it all. It was written by
Bill Yenne a few years ago. It's about the two best generals of World War II,
Patton, (United States Army), and Zhukov, (Red Army, Marshal of the Soviet
Union), fighting each other right after the end of the European war in May 1945.
This book should be right up your alley. The title says it all. It was written by
Bill Yenne a few years ago. It's about the two best generals of World War II,
Patton, (United States Army), and Zhukov, (Red Army, Marshal of the Soviet
Union), fighting each other right after the end of the European war in May 1945.
Thanks Blair152 that does sound like it's right up my alley.
Another great book by Yenne is Aces High about the lives of Richard Bong and Tommy McGuire. Excellent read.
Holy smokes I just went on Amazon to look for the book you mentioned and there must be 100 books by Bill Yenne. How can anyone write that much. Amazing. Very interesting books too.
I'm interested in the TL and hope you'll keep it up. I can't recommend A Damned Fine War; it reads too much like a paean to Patton and reads like a wish-fulfillment tale for him.
Over Run
May 2nd, 1946
06:47 hours
US HQ
Bonn Germany
Sir all communications with West Berlin have been cut. It happened about 10 minutes ago.
We also have reports of a massive attack on our forward air bases all over West Germany. A number of bases have lost phone contact and we are not receiving any signals of any kind.
What was that sir?
Yes I estimate that 75% of our forward bases are either under attack or have been destroyed. No sir I wish to god this was a drill.
Yes sir it is my professional opinion that we are under a massive attack and that the Reds have started WWIII. No sir I have no idea why they have attacked nor what their objectives are.
Excuse me a second sir...It appears that we now have Red Army units that are now crossing the border under a heavy rolling artillery barrage. Yes sir the report says that our units are being destroyed where they stand. Sir we must pull back and fight a delaying action. We cannot stand up to this initial attack with the units we have.
Hell sir all of the units are at half strength how are we supposed to stop a Soviet S2 heavy tank with our pop guns. Most of our heavy artillery was destroy by those flying tanks that came screaming in at 250mph and spitting 23mm cannon shells and rockets. What sir... OK I got it…Sturmoviks… they are called Sturmoviks.
My question for you is where is our air cover? These freekin Stormo...whatever the hell they're called are all over us. You can't shoot them down from the ground. They're like flying tanks and they are killing our armor and any strong points we setup. It's like 1940 with us as the French. We need air support.
I don't even know if we can pull back without air cover. We need air cover and we need it now. We are dead meat with these things flying around.
May 2nd, 1946
06:47 hours
US HQ
Bonn Germany
Sir all communications with West Berlin have been cut. It happened about 10 minutes ago.
We also have reports of a massive attack on our forward air bases all over West Germany. A number of bases have lost phone contact and we are not receiving any signals of any kind.
What was that sir?
Yes I estimate that 75% of our forward bases are either under attack or have been destroyed. No sir I wish to god this was a drill.
Yes sir it is my professional opinion that we are under a massive attack and that the Reds have started WWIII. No sir I have no idea why they have attacked nor what their objectives are.
Excuse me a second sir...It appears that we now have Red Army units that are now crossing the border under a heavy rolling artillery barrage. Yes sir the report says that our units are being destroyed where they stand. Sir we must pull back and fight a delaying action. We cannot stand up to this initial attack with the units we have.
Hell sir all of the units are at half strength how are we supposed to stop a Soviet S2 heavy tank with our pop guns. Most of our heavy artillery was destroy by those flying tanks that came screaming in at 250mph and spitting 23mm cannon shells and rockets. What sir... OK I got it…Sturmoviks… they are called Sturmoviks.
My question for you is where is our air cover? These freekin Stormo...whatever the hell they're called are all over us. You can't shoot them down from the ground. They're like flying tanks and they are killing our armor and any strong points we setup. It's like 1940 with us as the French. We need air support.
I don't even know if we can pull back without air cover. We need air cover and we need it now. We are dead meat with these things flying around.
May 2nd, 1946
03:00 Eastern Standard time
White House
Washington, D.C.
Sorry to wake you mister President but our worst fears have come true the Soviets have attacked all along the front in Western Germany.
Do you remember our briefing in April sir? Yes it is all starting to happen just as we feared. Our frontline troops are being overrun (god help them) and our air assets were caught on the ground.
Yes sir just like Pearl. Pretty amazing how we keep getting our clock cleaned by surprise attacks. Luckily they have no long range bombers and fighters for any kind of strategic attack but they have a hell of a tactical and operational reach.
Our troops are getting slaughtered sir. I urgently suggest that we implement the plan that the Joint Chiefs were discussing for just this eventuality. It's pretty hard to brief you in your pajamas sir.
Well the short version is we fallback and do a fighting retreat. We need the order now to fallback sir and to try and save as many as possible.
Yes sir I know it will mean abandoning millions of our allies to the communists. I agree with you sir but staying and fighting will just get us killed at this point. We must fall back to in order to survive to fight another day.
As you recall sir we only have 22 divisions and they are at half strength. The estimate is we are facing upwards of 100 divisions between the Soviets and their red allies.
You know sir Albania, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria. Yes sir all those Balkan countries. They are well equipped and trained enough to take out Italy and Greece who are just about our only allies besides France on the Northern Mediterranean coast.
Sir may I suggest that we don't have time for this now. I highly recommend that you order a general withdrawal towards France. A fighting withdrawal would sound better to the press. We need to do it now.
Thank you sir.
Major Grabowski get your ass in here. Issue general order 4598 authorizing a fighting retreat towards France for all allied forces now in Germany. We will make our first stand on the Rhine.
You made the right decision sir. It will save countless lives in the end. Yes sir I will have a briefing set up for 06:00.
Soviet News Reel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpAz6oQyfW0
03:00 Eastern Standard time
White House
Washington, D.C.
Sorry to wake you mister President but our worst fears have come true the Soviets have attacked all along the front in Western Germany.
Do you remember our briefing in April sir? Yes it is all starting to happen just as we feared. Our frontline troops are being overrun (god help them) and our air assets were caught on the ground.
Yes sir just like Pearl. Pretty amazing how we keep getting our clock cleaned by surprise attacks. Luckily they have no long range bombers and fighters for any kind of strategic attack but they have a hell of a tactical and operational reach.
Our troops are getting slaughtered sir. I urgently suggest that we implement the plan that the Joint Chiefs were discussing for just this eventuality. It's pretty hard to brief you in your pajamas sir.
Well the short version is we fallback and do a fighting retreat. We need the order now to fallback sir and to try and save as many as possible.
Yes sir I know it will mean abandoning millions of our allies to the communists. I agree with you sir but staying and fighting will just get us killed at this point. We must fall back to in order to survive to fight another day.
As you recall sir we only have 22 divisions and they are at half strength. The estimate is we are facing upwards of 100 divisions between the Soviets and their red allies.
You know sir Albania, Yugoslavia, Romania, Bulgaria. Yes sir all those Balkan countries. They are well equipped and trained enough to take out Italy and Greece who are just about our only allies besides France on the Northern Mediterranean coast.
Sir may I suggest that we don't have time for this now. I highly recommend that you order a general withdrawal towards France. A fighting withdrawal would sound better to the press. We need to do it now.
Thank you sir.
Major Grabowski get your ass in here. Issue general order 4598 authorizing a fighting retreat towards France for all allied forces now in Germany. We will make our first stand on the Rhine.
You made the right decision sir. It will save countless lives in the end. Yes sir I will have a briefing set up for 06:00.
Soviet News Reel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpAz6oQyfW0
White House Briefing May 2nd, 1946 6:00am
May 2nd, 1946
6:00 am
War Room
The White House
Washington, DC
Please sit down. General please brief us on the situation.
Thank you sir. It appears as though the Soviets have decided to fulfill their goal of a worldwide workers paradise starting with Europe. They have launched a full scale surprise attack all along the West German border. Their stated aim to the world is to rid Germany of the B29 base we have constructed stating that "It is an obvious provocation that must be eliminated". We have no reason to believe that they have any plan to stop their attack once the base has been overrun which at the rate they are advancing will be next week.
What forces we have left in Europe were at half strength. On paper we have 22 divisions and 500 frontline tactical combat aircraft. of those 22 divisions only 2 are anywhere near combat ready. In the initial attack we lost 75% of our aircraft and 10 divisions on the frontline are out of communication at this time.
The Soviets are attacking in army and corps strength. We believe that have over 60 full front line divisions facing us in Germany with up to 7,000 frontline fighters and ground attack aircraft.
We have reports of large gaps in our front lines with Soviet heavy armor pouring through. They appear to be after our supply depots. The situation is very similar to the opening days of the Battle of the Bulge. This time however we have to contend with an enemy who can match our tactical and operational level air power plane for plane. We do not and will not have air superiority for the immediate future and neither will they.
Our artillery ordinance and fire control are superior to theirs. They have the numbers however and have used it very effectively. As of last reports their massed artillery parks are able to overcome our fewer, more sophisticated artillery arm. As you all know it is a matter of combined arms. Kind of a Rock Paper Scissors situation and right now they have two trump cards which I will get to in a moment.
The reports are that casualties are very high. So far the Soviets are using conventional weapons and systems. No biological or chemical weapons have been reported or even suspected. No secret or unexpected weapons are in use. Our strategic weapons systems are still relatively good order in the US and England.
Our nuclear capabilities are on a need to know basis and those of you who have clearance will be briefed later.
In any event we will not be using Abombs in Europe at this time. I'm sure our allies would rather be "Red than Dead" as I've heard some peaceniks chant. We know that the Soviets have penetrated the inner workings of our nuclear weapons program and know our best kept secrets. Secrets that we cannot even tell you at this time. They know how many bombs we have and exactly what the circumstances are for their use.
Earlier I mentioned that they have two trump cards at this time that they have laid on the table. The first is their heavy tanks. Their model T44 and S3 are far superior to anything we have in Europe at this time. Our M4A2 76 are hopelessly out classed and we are in the middle of phasing out the tank destroyer doctrine which some call a "dismal failure". We so have some Pershing M26 Heavy/Medium tanks that have engaged their heavies with disastrous results. We were able to counter the German heavy tanks with a combination of tactical air power and artillery.
Currently against the Reds both of those options have been negated and we are having a tough time stopping their heavy armor. The Soviet T44 and S3 are virtually unstoppable at this point from any range outside of point blank. Luckily they are in limited numbers and appear to be not very reliable.
The main armor the Soviets are using is the T34 85. A veteran of many a battle in the previous war. It still outclasses our best armor in every category an it is being deployed in huge numbers.
Our only defense to Soviet armor is close in assault tactics using bazookas and high explosive charges place directly on the vehicle. Obviously this is not acceptable and we must find a solution to counter this very real advantage.
Our previous solutions including the use of massive tactical air power and artillery barrage are not available at this time due to lack of air superiority and counter battery fire on a massive scale by the Soviet guns.
Their other advantage at the moment is in their sheer overwhelming numbers. We are well matched in the air and out manned 3 to one on the ground. Their standard frontline fighters are equal to ours in both performance and numbers on a tactical basis...
What was that Congressman?
What I mean by tactical are the actions that are close to the battle field. Tactical weapons are things like, rifles, machine guns, bazookas, ground attack aircraft, tanks. Things that are used on a small scale are close in to the battlefield and short timelines. In the case of the fighters to make it simple I'll say within sight of the ground. Their fighters are as good as ours in the lower to medium altitudes. We do have an advantage higher up but I will talk about that later.
Does that answer your question for now Congressman? Yes sir, my pleasure.
We too have advantages but we cannot bring them to bear at the moment. We have bid our time and use them as soon as we can. Our naval power is unrivaled and they will never be able to match us in sheer numbers and quality. Unfortunately the Soviets have all the resources they need contained on their own landmass. They have no need for shipping. No need for a navy.
Our navy gives us the same advantages that the British Empire had over its rivals. Mobility and the ability to hit anywhere at anytime on any coast. We can hit and run or hit and stay at our leisure as long as we have control or even parity in the air space over the battlefield.
Our second advantage is mobility. Our ground forces are faster and more mobile in every category. If the situation calls for maneuver we have the advantage. As I said before our navy gives us the capability to hit them anywhere at anytime within 400 miles of a coast along with the logistics to support a full scale invasion such as the D-Day operation.
Our third advantage is our strategic bomber force. We pounded the Nazis into surrender and we intend to do the same to the Soviets. We just have to get ourselves into position to accomplish this objective. I'm sure the Soviets have learned their lessons from WWII and are preparing counter measures as we speak. Our B29s along with their escorts can fly higher than their current frontline fighters can reach and have a 1600 mile range with escorts. If we fly without escorts the range increases by 400 miles. Until they produce a counter to our bomber force they are at a great disadvantage. As I said earlier I am sure they are aware of the problem.
They are currently in possession of 3 B29s and have had them since 1944.....
Yes Admiral ... they acquired them in the Far East Theater when our bombers were forced to land in Soviet territory during bombing raids on Japanese forces. So far they have come up with many excuses to delay their return. I’m sure the point is mute now.
If I may continue sir...thank you.
The point is that they have been studying the Super Fortress for almost a year and know it's capabilities and vulnerabilities.
They have very limited strategic air power assets. We have reason to believe that they have gathered a fair number of former German scientists, blue prints, designs and prototypes. They seem to be particularly interested in guided rockets.
Yes Senator...Yes I said guided rockets. The Germans were very advanced and tested numerous models. We can brief you offline later Senator.
We have been studying just this situation for the last 4 months and were about to publish our first draft. I would suggest that it is now our final draft.
May 2nd, 1946
6:00 am
War Room
The White House
Washington, DC
Please sit down. General please brief us on the situation.
Thank you sir. It appears as though the Soviets have decided to fulfill their goal of a worldwide workers paradise starting with Europe. They have launched a full scale surprise attack all along the West German border. Their stated aim to the world is to rid Germany of the B29 base we have constructed stating that "It is an obvious provocation that must be eliminated". We have no reason to believe that they have any plan to stop their attack once the base has been overrun which at the rate they are advancing will be next week.
What forces we have left in Europe were at half strength. On paper we have 22 divisions and 500 frontline tactical combat aircraft. of those 22 divisions only 2 are anywhere near combat ready. In the initial attack we lost 75% of our aircraft and 10 divisions on the frontline are out of communication at this time.
The Soviets are attacking in army and corps strength. We believe that have over 60 full front line divisions facing us in Germany with up to 7,000 frontline fighters and ground attack aircraft.
We have reports of large gaps in our front lines with Soviet heavy armor pouring through. They appear to be after our supply depots. The situation is very similar to the opening days of the Battle of the Bulge. This time however we have to contend with an enemy who can match our tactical and operational level air power plane for plane. We do not and will not have air superiority for the immediate future and neither will they.
Our artillery ordinance and fire control are superior to theirs. They have the numbers however and have used it very effectively. As of last reports their massed artillery parks are able to overcome our fewer, more sophisticated artillery arm. As you all know it is a matter of combined arms. Kind of a Rock Paper Scissors situation and right now they have two trump cards which I will get to in a moment.
The reports are that casualties are very high. So far the Soviets are using conventional weapons and systems. No biological or chemical weapons have been reported or even suspected. No secret or unexpected weapons are in use. Our strategic weapons systems are still relatively good order in the US and England.
Our nuclear capabilities are on a need to know basis and those of you who have clearance will be briefed later.
In any event we will not be using Abombs in Europe at this time. I'm sure our allies would rather be "Red than Dead" as I've heard some peaceniks chant. We know that the Soviets have penetrated the inner workings of our nuclear weapons program and know our best kept secrets. Secrets that we cannot even tell you at this time. They know how many bombs we have and exactly what the circumstances are for their use.
Earlier I mentioned that they have two trump cards at this time that they have laid on the table. The first is their heavy tanks. Their model T44 and S3 are far superior to anything we have in Europe at this time. Our M4A2 76 are hopelessly out classed and we are in the middle of phasing out the tank destroyer doctrine which some call a "dismal failure". We so have some Pershing M26 Heavy/Medium tanks that have engaged their heavies with disastrous results. We were able to counter the German heavy tanks with a combination of tactical air power and artillery.
Currently against the Reds both of those options have been negated and we are having a tough time stopping their heavy armor. The Soviet T44 and S3 are virtually unstoppable at this point from any range outside of point blank. Luckily they are in limited numbers and appear to be not very reliable.
The main armor the Soviets are using is the T34 85. A veteran of many a battle in the previous war. It still outclasses our best armor in every category an it is being deployed in huge numbers.
Our only defense to Soviet armor is close in assault tactics using bazookas and high explosive charges place directly on the vehicle. Obviously this is not acceptable and we must find a solution to counter this very real advantage.
Our previous solutions including the use of massive tactical air power and artillery barrage are not available at this time due to lack of air superiority and counter battery fire on a massive scale by the Soviet guns.
Their other advantage at the moment is in their sheer overwhelming numbers. We are well matched in the air and out manned 3 to one on the ground. Their standard frontline fighters are equal to ours in both performance and numbers on a tactical basis...
What was that Congressman?
What I mean by tactical are the actions that are close to the battle field. Tactical weapons are things like, rifles, machine guns, bazookas, ground attack aircraft, tanks. Things that are used on a small scale are close in to the battlefield and short timelines. In the case of the fighters to make it simple I'll say within sight of the ground. Their fighters are as good as ours in the lower to medium altitudes. We do have an advantage higher up but I will talk about that later.
Does that answer your question for now Congressman? Yes sir, my pleasure.
We too have advantages but we cannot bring them to bear at the moment. We have bid our time and use them as soon as we can. Our naval power is unrivaled and they will never be able to match us in sheer numbers and quality. Unfortunately the Soviets have all the resources they need contained on their own landmass. They have no need for shipping. No need for a navy.
Our navy gives us the same advantages that the British Empire had over its rivals. Mobility and the ability to hit anywhere at anytime on any coast. We can hit and run or hit and stay at our leisure as long as we have control or even parity in the air space over the battlefield.
Our second advantage is mobility. Our ground forces are faster and more mobile in every category. If the situation calls for maneuver we have the advantage. As I said before our navy gives us the capability to hit them anywhere at anytime within 400 miles of a coast along with the logistics to support a full scale invasion such as the D-Day operation.
Our third advantage is our strategic bomber force. We pounded the Nazis into surrender and we intend to do the same to the Soviets. We just have to get ourselves into position to accomplish this objective. I'm sure the Soviets have learned their lessons from WWII and are preparing counter measures as we speak. Our B29s along with their escorts can fly higher than their current frontline fighters can reach and have a 1600 mile range with escorts. If we fly without escorts the range increases by 400 miles. Until they produce a counter to our bomber force they are at a great disadvantage. As I said earlier I am sure they are aware of the problem.
They are currently in possession of 3 B29s and have had them since 1944.....
Yes Admiral ... they acquired them in the Far East Theater when our bombers were forced to land in Soviet territory during bombing raids on Japanese forces. So far they have come up with many excuses to delay their return. I’m sure the point is mute now.
If I may continue sir...thank you.
The point is that they have been studying the Super Fortress for almost a year and know it's capabilities and vulnerabilities.
They have very limited strategic air power assets. We have reason to believe that they have gathered a fair number of former German scientists, blue prints, designs and prototypes. They seem to be particularly interested in guided rockets.
Yes Senator...Yes I said guided rockets. The Germans were very advanced and tested numerous models. We can brief you offline later Senator.
We have been studying just this situation for the last 4 months and were about to publish our first draft. I would suggest that it is now our final draft.
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The Vulture
Banned
This is going to be a very tough struggle. I imagine France is going to throw everything they have into this fight.
Oh, and I'm interested to know how Franco and Salazar are taking this.
Oh, and I'm interested to know how Franco and Salazar are taking this.
WarBastard
Banned
I wonder what the Soviet submarine force is like... probably not up to much, but it would be interesting if it was able to give shipping a hard time
Larrikin
Banned
You aren't kidding on the rapidity of demob. My father was back in Australia from England (bomber crew) prior to going north and was discharged on the 10th of Sept, with the official end date being the 3rd. They were basically called in and shown the door.
well, isntate the draft, mobilization on millions of men, using atomic Bombes as strategic, autorize The FBI and CIA to clean the US of comunist activity by any means like the Patriotic act, and death penalty for all those found gulty.