World War I Where France Still Has Alsace-Lorraine

I've read recently that even if Germany let France keep Alsace-Lorraine after the Franco-Prussian War that France would still resent a united Germany because it would be far to great a geopolitical force in Europe. I've also read that a lasting Russo-German alliance was doomed due to German fears of being eventually dominated by Russia.

Regardless of how inevitable or not of Germany being surrounded by a hostile Franco-Russian Entente is, it got me wondering, if World War I or a similar war between at least Germany and Austria on one side and France and Russia on the other broke out in the early 20th century, how would France still having Alsace-Lorraine effect the strategies on both sides and how would it effect France's ability to wage war?
 
No matter who owned Alsace-Lorraine there would be significant rivalry between france and Germany, and the alliance system which led to WWI, at least in part, would still be there. Absent the desire for "révanche" and the desire to focus on the liberation of Alsace-Lorraine, the French philosophy of "attaque a l'outrance" may not be as prominent, or it may. With Alsace-Lorraine in French hands with border fortresses, an indirect approach will be more important for the Germans.
 
I don't think the revanchist mentality will be the same, the French army was blinded by revenge, talking about courage, motivation... but they never watch the true shortcoming of the army, here they will reform more intelligently.
Germany will also see economic change, no potash from Alsace (so less fertilizer), less steel and coal (no Moselle area). They may buy more from France making the two country getting closer.
It may also change the french colonial mentality, less rush to grab colonies because of a smaller defeat on the continent (less demographic difference)
 
France would be in a much stronger position.

1. They would have the Rhine for a long stretch

2. The Metz fortress would still be theirs

3. If they hold onto Metz they would deprive the Germans the vital iron mines

How all this changes German strategy

It would be impossible to deploy seven armies against the French and the defense of the Rhineland very difficult. Germany would be very hard pressed against the same coalition
 
There was never any real possibility that a victorious Prussia/Germany would not take some of Alsace-Lorraine. The question was how much.

"The annexation of Strasbourg and of Alsace appeared to him [Bismarck] necessary in order to enhance the security of southern Germany and make any French pressure on the South German states impossible." Hajo Holborn, A History of Modern Germany: 1840-1945, p. 222. https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4pLQ1jC1JIC&pg=PA222

What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)
 

TruthfulPanda

Gone Fishin'
What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)
Or, no matter how little we take they will still rabidly hate us, so better to make a buffer zone ...
 
There was never any real possibility that a victorious Prussia/Germany would not take some of Alsace-Lorraine. The question was how much.

"The annexation of Strasbourg and of Alsace appeared to him [Bismarck] necessary in order to enhance the security of southern Germany and make any French pressure on the South German states impossible." Hajo Holborn, A History of Modern Germany: 1840-1945, p. 222. https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4pLQ1jC1JIC&pg=PA222

What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)

There are ways to get the POD. Either have the Prussian victory not be so crushing or outside interference to limit Prussian demands.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
There was never any real possibility that a victorious Prussia/Germany would not take some of Alsace-Lorraine. The question was how much.

"The annexation of Strasbourg and of Alsace appeared to him [Bismarck] necessary in order to enhance the security of southern Germany and make any French pressure on the South German states impossible." Hajo Holborn, A History of Modern Germany: 1840-1945, p. 222. https://books.google.com/books?id=Y4pLQ1jC1JIC&pg=PA222

What is true is that Bismarck did not originally favor taking Metz, but yielded to the military judgment of Moltke on that issue. (Indeed, there was a real dilemma here. Even a limited annexation--of the German-speaking areas of Alsace--would be enough to embitter France and make it dream of a war of revenge in the future. So to put Germany in the best possible position for such a war, it was thought necessary to take even more territory and thus embitter the French even more...)

By the time right before WW1, A-L was fading as an issue. And given another generation, it would have totally faded into the background like the Sudetenland did for modern Germany. Or Canada losing northern Maine. Or Mexico losing Texas. etc. etc.

It was the massive losses of WW1 that brought A-L back to an top flight issue.
 
By the time right before WW1, A-L was fading as an issue.

It had seemed to be fading, if only because many of the people of Alsace-Lorraine did not care for the anticlerical direction the French Republic was taking after the Dreyfus Affair. But then came the Zabern affair. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zabern_Affair https://groups.google.com/d/msg/soc.history.what-if/13xS3xMHyvM/WbhIvteb9mMJ

Nationalism was actually undergoing something of a revival in France, which threatened to revive the issue of Alsace-Lorraine. "The public, too, at least until the nationalist revival in the years immediately before 1914 , seems to have been largely unenthusiastic, indeed apprehensive, about the prospect of another war even for Alsace and Lorraine." [emphasis added--DT] https://books.google.com/books?id=xjLz2685I74C&pg=PT223 "

"[In the Latin] Quarter 3,000 demonstrated, chanting "Vive I'Alsace! Vive la Lorraine!" and in the Parisian theaters patriotic plays were newly popular. From the countryside observers noted a new belligerence among peasant farmers.. Joan of Arc, who had been beatified in 1909, enjoyed a fresh popularity. This time the enemy was not the British, however. "Wilma says that in her circles everyone is mad for war," Harry Kessler reported in 1912 of his sister who lived in Paris. "All are convinced that they will beat us."39 When a German Zeppelin had to make a forced landing in a French town in the spring of 1913, local crowds threw stones at the crew. The French government apologized for the "lamentable" behavior. Wilhelm wrote an angry note: "this is really mild! It is simply plebeian and uncivilised, like in a land of barbarians! This is derived from anti-German agitation!". The Zabern affair a few months later, when German officers treated the inhabitants of Alsace with contempt, received wide coverage in the French press which saw it as yet another example of Prussian militarism.41 (Moltke found the belligerence in the French press useful as a further justification for increasing the size of the German army.)42"
https://books.google.com/books?id=xjLz2685I74C&pg=PT674

It's tempting to think that the longer the time since 1871, the less Alsace-Lorraine would matter, but history does not necessarily work in that straightline-progressive fashion. See Eugene Weber's The Nationalist Revival in France, 1905-1914. Speaking of the years just before the War, "National sentiment had become lively, almost irritable. The words "Alsace-Lorraine" would be greeted with cheers in the schools, and lecturers now hardly dared to mention German methods or ideas for fear of the murmurs and catcalls.." https://books.google.com/books?id=nbD8_7npgOwC&pg=PA107
 
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