World War I Light Rifle?
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
Undernieve everything there lurks a very simple blow back SMG using a heavy bolt and two return springs.
Strip of the water jacket and stick to the stick magazines only and you might well have a reasonably good easy to build gun.
It can be surmised that because the water cooling jacket comes back far enough that it probably covers the chamber as well as the barrel the gun actually fired from a closed bolt only.
Cooling the chamber would be important to avoid rounds 'cooking off' after sustained firing. The large drum magazines would indicate that this could have been a problem.
Firing from a closed bolt means that you cannot use a fixed firing pin so you will need either a hammer system to strike it or a separate firing pin spring. In the photographs you can discern that there is a separate housing on the rear of the end plate in addition to the two guide rod covers that in all probability housed the firing pin spring.
Strip of the water jacket and stick to the stick magazines only and you might well have a reasonably good easy to build gun.
It can be surmised that because the water cooling jacket comes back far enough that it probably covers the chamber as well as the barrel the gun actually fired from a closed bolt only.
Cooling the chamber would be important to avoid rounds 'cooking off' after sustained firing. The large drum magazines would indicate that this could have been a problem.
Firing from a closed bolt means that you cannot use a fixed firing pin so you will need either a hammer system to strike it or a separate firing pin spring. In the photographs you can discern that there is a separate housing on the rear of the end plate in addition to the two guide rod covers that in all probability housed the firing pin spring.
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To top that the Standschütze Hellriegel water cooled barrel was coated in Leather
Weird! Stranger looking weapons exist, but this one's pretty crazy... AH was doing some strange stuff during WW1; posted some time ago about a AH air cushion boat program they had in test early in the war.We hat not Yet, the Standschütze Hellriegel 1915
A unique prototype of Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun tested in October 1915
it offers dual mode of firing of 9mm
stationary with 160-round drum (spring-tensioned) as Machine Gun
mobile as submachine gun with 20-round stick magazine
who ? why ? are mystery
Standschütze are the Austrian-Hungarian reserve forces,
Hellriegel is common Austrian surname
probabilistic that Weapon invented by a Hellriegel, was developed for or by Standschütze.
Why the weapon not enter service is a mystery...
Only pictures of it
We hat not Yet, the Standschütze Hellriegel 1915
A unique prototype of Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun tested in October 1915
it offers dual mode of firing of 9mm
stationary with 160-round drum (spring-tensioned) as Machine Gun
mobile as submachine gun with 20-round stick magazine
who ? why ? are mystery
Standschütze are the Austrian-Hungarian reserve forces,
Hellriegel is common Austrian surname
probabilistic that Weapon invented by a Hellriegel, was developed for or by Standschütze.
Why the weapon not enter service is a mystery...
Only pictures of it
We hat not Yet, the Standschütze Hellriegel 1915
A unique prototype of Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun tested in October 1915
it offers dual mode of firing of 9mm
stationary with 160-round drum (spring-tensioned) as Machine Gun
mobile as submachine gun with 20-round stick magazine
who ? why ? are mystery
Standschütze are the Austrian-Hungarian reserve forces,
Hellriegel is common Austrian surname
probabilistic that Weapon invented by a Hellriegel, was developed for or by Standschütze.
Why the weapon not enter service is a mystery...
Only pictures of it
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OK, I have to try and make a facsimile of one of these, or two. Big Steampunk Convention coming in a couple months, doubt I can knock one together by then, but I can make contacts for later. This may be a lot of fun...
Got one, nice and salt pepper gray. Just need to let it grow out a bit, dig through the closet and find suitable attire, maybe order some more. And gather some parts. Sadly, as so often happens, the now ex wife threw a hell of a lot of my odds and ends parts away. All brass, gears, cogs, etc. sigh......
Deleted member 1487
Deleted member 1487
We hat not Yet, the Standschütze Hellriegel 1915
A unique prototype of Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun tested in October 1915
it offers dual mode of firing of 9mm
stationary with 160-round drum (spring-tensioned) as Machine Gun
mobile as submachine gun with 20-round stick magazine
who ? why ? are mystery
Standschütze are the Austrian-Hungarian reserve forces,
Hellriegel is common Austrian surname
probabilistic that Weapon invented by a Hellriegel, was developed for or by Standschütze.
Why the weapon not enter service is a mystery...
Only pictures of it
Guess who did a video:
My favored Gun Historian Ian McCollum !
in video he mention Matthew Moss’s excellent article about Hellriegel,
http://www.historicalfirearms.info/post/144116055269/standschütze-hellriegel-submachine-gun-the
Some observations on the photographs and Ian's comments. The photographs suggest that both the stick magazines and the drum magazine were inserted into the gun by offering them up into the cutout space at the rear of the water jacket and then pulling them backwards into the slot below the breach where they were held in place by a sprung latch on the side of the magazine or flexible feed. This feed slot is not vertically below the receiver but is offset at about 10 degrees to the right side of the gun. The sprung loaded follower arm in the photograph of the open drum magazine shows no discernable flexible follower to push rounds up through the flexible feed. Counting rounds in the drum gives an approximate capacity of 150 of which as many a 20/25 would be left stranded in the flexible feed way! Even the two stick magazines shown in the picture appear to have differences, one appears to have the feed spring follower on the front side of the magazine and the other has it on the right side as the magazine fits the gun. One can surmise by the visual diameter and length of the bolt housing that it was approximately 50mm long ( based on the stick magazine being for a 9x25 round) and 40/50mm diameter. Whether the two protrusions on the rear of the receiver are for the recoil springs and guide rods is again a matter of conjecture. There does appear to be a further housing on the back of the receiver between the two prominent one but this is too indistinct to evaluate. Twin springs and guide rods would seem a reasonable assumption to provide directional stability to what is in effect a circular bolt. Though a measure of directional stability to the bolt could be derived from the bolt handle riding in it's narrow slot in the receiver. All of the above is purely observational interpretation and conjecture on my part.
interesting alternative to light rifle brought the US army to war
The pump-action shotgun Winchester Model97 Trench Gun
It was very effective that got nickname "trench sweeper"
France and Britain use double-barreled hunting shotgun, but to slow to reload in close combat compare to pump-action
its bizarre twist of fate, the Germans had all the time during WW1 a factory that build pump-action shotgun
The Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre aka FN Herstal in Liege build the Browning Auto-5 pump-action shotgun.
the General Ludendorff consider this weapon as violation of the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare.
and Protested as US Troops use them, while The Sturmtruppen demanded there version of "trench sweeper"
The pump-action shotgun Winchester Model97 Trench Gun
It was very effective that got nickname "trench sweeper"
France and Britain use double-barreled hunting shotgun, but to slow to reload in close combat compare to pump-action
its bizarre twist of fate, the Germans had all the time during WW1 a factory that build pump-action shotgun
The Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre aka FN Herstal in Liege build the Browning Auto-5 pump-action shotgun.
the General Ludendorff consider this weapon as violation of the 1907 Hague Convention on Land Warfare.
and Protested as US Troops use them, while The Sturmtruppen demanded there version of "trench sweeper"
A slightly odd ball suggestion.
Instead of ordering Pattern 14 rifles in the US Britain orders the SMLE. Now when in April 1917 the US suddenly needs millions of rifles yesterday they take over production for themselves but there's a problem. The SMLE receiver was marginal for the US 30-06 round. As a quick fix, we need rifles now the US decides to use the lower powered 30 30 round instead.
Instead of ordering Pattern 14 rifles in the US Britain orders the SMLE. Now when in April 1917 the US suddenly needs millions of rifles yesterday they take over production for themselves but there's a problem. The SMLE receiver was marginal for the US 30-06 round. As a quick fix, we need rifles now the US decides to use the lower powered 30 30 round instead.
The Auto-5 was, as it's name implies, was a recoil-operated autoloader not a manual pump.
Faster and somewhat easier to fire, with lower recoil; a little sensitive to ammunition quality (which shouldn't be an issue with standard military brass rounds). Historically it saw substantial military and police use (it was a British staple in the jungles after WW2). There was no historical short barrel version until 1921 but it would be easy to design one.
no, the SMLE would never see 30-30, but the Savage 250-3000 necked up to 30 caliber, making the Savage 300 a few years early.
That cartridge overall length would work in that shorter action, and would be within 200 fps of the 30-06 loading
Decades later, that Savage 300 was developed into 7.62x51 NATO, and used in the reworked Ishapore Enfields