Cortz#9 PSMEP that is basically what the French did, to arrive at the 8mm Ribeyrolles rifle. A Simplified blow back designed select fire automatic rifle firing a necked down 351WSL cartridge good for 400 yards. Basically an assault rifle as per the post WW2 concept of such weapons but ready for mass production in 1918/19!!
World War I Light Rifle?
- Thread starter Jim Smitty
- Start date
No, the German try the Luger and C96 Mauser as Light rifle and it was a failure.
The problem they had was that the normal rifles were basically useless in melee combat in trench warfare.
Standart rifle and Machine guns were good to kill enemy attacking but once the emeny reach the trench there were useless.
As solution soldiers use self made knife, clubs, thrusting, Bayonets, even sharpened spades in trench.
it ironic that first industrial War, had to do medieval warfare to conquer a enemy trench.
On that problem found German in 1918 a Solution : Bergmann MP 18 the first submachine gun used in combat.
As an Historical quirk the Bergmann MP18 used the 'Snail Drum' magazine designed for the Luger pistol! Probably because that magazine was in serial production and available.
Deleted member 1487
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1907How about helping Winchester develop their Model 10 rifle earlier? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1910
Develop it to take a larger caliber and a detachable magazine that holds more rounds.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1905
The .32 WSL 1095 is probably about a Light Rifle as you can get, as it led to the M1 Carbine.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.32_Winchester_Self-Loading
How dare you forget this American masterpiece, ready years earlier:
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a21631/forgotten-weapons-americas-first-assault-rifle/
Gun Jesus FTW:
FWIIW, The M1917 Burton Light Rifle was originally designed as an aircraft gun! Therefore not an assault rifle, the fact that it fulfilled so many of the criteria for proto assault rile was purely coincidental. Whereas the 8mm Ribeyrolles was designed from the start as an intermediate cartridge firing infantry weapon. Also in the layout of the gun the M1917 Burton would work well as an LMG. So in my fantasy campaign of 1919 I se the allies fielding 8 mm Ribeyrolles as assault rifles with M1917 Burtons firing the same cartridge and magazine as LMG's facing The Germans with 8mm Mauser's and 9mm Bergman's.
Deleted member 1487
A ground version of the BLMR was developed without interest from the army. The issue with the Burton and Ribeyrolles was the lack of range due to the low powered round, so could make a fine autorifle SAW at 300m or less (actually probably 250m given the ~550mps muzzle velocity), but would have issues beyond that, especially as both were flat base rounds (the ballistic penalty for that starts kicking in when they go transsonic which for those would probably be around 250m).
Of course why worry about any of that when the Madsen LMG and Federov Avtomat already existed?
I've seen that gun before, it looks a little sci-fi-ish, it would've fit in, in a Star Wars movie.
I wish I could find some line drawings of it, would love to play with the design some.
Austrians even issued old maces from the Hapsburg Armories, but generally their M1910 Shovels were more than adequate for double duty as CC weapons
Deleted member 1487
When I went to the war museum in Vienna they had a collection of trench weapons. They were terrifying.
Only the Germans issued cartridges featuring boat tails during WWI, and other nations were slow to adopt that to their spitzer designs.
The .276 Pederson had a 125 grain boat-tailed bullet, but this was 'killed' by MacArthur in 1932
The US 1926 30-06 M1 had a 174 grain boat tail, but besides making the new M1 Garand test rifles break, and was long ranged enough to be a problem at Army shooting ranges.
So around a billion of those rounds were allocated for USN use in Machine Guns, and a new M2 Ball of 1936, with a 150gr flat base bullet and different powder, basically recreated the old M1906 30-06 round that was slightly higher MV, but more friendly to the Garand gas trap system was greenlighted.
In October 1939, after around 50,000 M1 Rifles had been made, the decision to goto a standard gas system with a port drilled into the barrel was decided.
IMO, the M2 cartridge was an unneeded bandaid to get the original M1 to work properly. As far as I've been able to discover, the Johnson Rifle worked the same with either Round
Deleted member 1487
Another interesting pre-WW1 idea:
http://www.municion.org/7mm/7_65x32PistolenKarabiner.htm
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/765-x-32-mannlicher-pistol-carbine
Neck it down to a 5.6mm round and load it hot and you'd have a great WW1 light rifle.
http://www.municion.org/7mm/7_65x32PistolenKarabiner.htm
http://www.cartridgecollector.net/765-x-32-mannlicher-pistol-carbine
Neck it down to a 5.6mm round and load it hot and you'd have a great WW1 light rifle.
SwampTiger
Banned
Start with the Winchester 1910. Replace the heavy bolt and forward counterweight with a Lewis gun gas system and bolt. Neck the .401 WSL to .308 and use the 150 grain spitzer bullet from the .30-06. Should be good for 2200-2300 fps. Rifle weight should drop from 9 lbs to 7 lbs. Replace the single stack mags with a double stack single feed magazine. Winchester had modified 1907 rifles to full-auto for the French. Use same on this rifle or leave semi-auto.
Deleted member 1487
You've created an entirely new weapon at that point, just design from scratch if you're going to change the operating system entirely.
SwampTiger
Banned
So, instead you create an entirely new weapon system by adding the 2 lb Pedersen Device to the nearly 9 lb Springfield to create an 11 lb "Light Rifle"? Plus you create an entirely new low powered cartridge? Note the Germans, Austrians and Italians developed SMG type weapons during the war. The French and Russians were developing proto-assault rifles.
The modified 1910 Winchester uses existing technology to create a gas operated rather than blowback 1918 Ribeyrolles. Plus the US Army could start development prior to WW1. They certainly knew about the need for automatic weapons and lighter weapons from the Spanish-American, Russo-Japanese, Balkan and Mexican Civil Wars.
Also, I forgot to add changing the cartridge to rimless.
The modified 1910 Winchester uses existing technology to create a gas operated rather than blowback 1918 Ribeyrolles. Plus the US Army could start development prior to WW1. They certainly knew about the need for automatic weapons and lighter weapons from the Spanish-American, Russo-Japanese, Balkan and Mexican Civil Wars.
Also, I forgot to add changing the cartridge to rimless.
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Pedersen Device added so much weight as it was to be quicly convertible back and forth, while not touching the existing magazine, that was to remain loaded with 30-06 cartridges.
That's why it had the angled magazine setup it did.
If the goal was a permanently converted Springfield, it would not have been as heavy.
About the French
in response to Bergmann MP 18 the Service Technique de L’Armée (STA) develop the STA 24 in 1918 ready for introduction in 1924
it fired the 9x19mm Parabellum round. magazine capacity of 32 rounds, the STA 24 was lighter as MP 18
semi-automatic rifle the French had the R.S.C Model 1917/1918 but that never got in service.
it successor The MAS 40 had same fate in 1941, finally it successor the MAS 49 got in service at 1949
SwampTiger
Banned
The Fusil Automatique 1917 was used in 1918 on the Western Front. About 86,000 were built. The 1918 version was simplified, lightened and made easier to service. France used it in the Rif War in 1925-6. Some 4000 were built.
If a substantially modified 1910 WSL is a step too far for some, try the Model 1905 in .35 WSL with the French modifications of the 1907. They requested larger magazines(20 rds) and bayonet lugs. Their final order was modified to full auto. In a shortened 1905 with a pistol grip stock, you would have a light-weight, proto-smg. The .35 WSL fired a 180 gr(12 g) bullet at 1396 fps(426 mps) for 779 lb-ft(1056 J) with a 22 inch(558 mm) barrel. A better cartridge than the 9 mm Glisenti, 9 mm Parabellum or even 9 mm Mauser of the time.
If you necked the cartridge for .308 150 grain bullets, you have an early M2 carbine weighing an extra 2 lbs and with more powerful cartridge.
Note that the 1905 solution was off the shelf. The French had received 5000 1907 rifles during the war.
We hat not Yet, the Standschütze Hellriegel 1915
A unique prototype of Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun tested in October 1915
it offers dual mode of firing of 9mm
stationary with 160-round drum (spring-tensioned) as Machine Gun
mobile as submachine gun with 20-round stick magazine
who ? why ? are mystery
Standschütze are the Austrian-Hungarian reserve forces,
Hellriegel is common Austrian surname
probabilistic that Weapon invented by a Hellriegel, was developed for or by Standschütze.
Why the weapon not enter service is a mystery...
Only pictures of it
A unique prototype of Austro-Hungarian water-cooled submachine gun tested in October 1915
it offers dual mode of firing of 9mm
stationary with 160-round drum (spring-tensioned) as Machine Gun
mobile as submachine gun with 20-round stick magazine
who ? why ? are mystery
Standschütze are the Austrian-Hungarian reserve forces,
Hellriegel is common Austrian surname
probabilistic that Weapon invented by a Hellriegel, was developed for or by Standschütze.
Why the weapon not enter service is a mystery...
Only pictures of it