World war 2 ends in a stalemate

If the Nazi war machine can be exhausted to the point that it simply cannot support further engagement, even Hitler would have to see sense. I mean, it's not like Hitler will force every single German person to grab whatever they can and charge the Red Army if it comes to that.


Don't bet on that. He was fanatical. And after all the Soviets killed by the war, and by the SS, what makes you think the Red Army would want to quit. They're out for revenge. Perhaps if you were to topple both governments or at least heads of state, then... even then I don't think it's possible. That is my opinion.
 
Don't bet on that. He was fanatical. And after all the Soviets killed by the war, and by the SS, what makes you think the Red Army would want to quit. They're out for revenge. Perhaps if you were to topple both governments or at least heads of state, then... even then I don't think it's possible. That is my opinion.

If your country cannot fight, it cannot fight. Hitler would see that. And if the Soviets were in a similar condition, Stalin would want time to rebuild and recosolidate his forces. Such a scenario is improbable, but not inconcievable.
 
If your country cannot fight, it cannot fight. Hitler would see that. And if the Soviets were in a similar condition, Stalin would want time to rebuild and recosolidate his forces. Such a scenario is improbable, but not inconcievable.


If there was only one Nazi and one Red left, and all they had were butter knives, they would still be at each other's throats.... What they need is a buffer state.
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
If your country cannot fight, it cannot fight. Hitler would see that. And if the Soviets were in a similar condition, Stalin would want time to rebuild and recosolidate his forces. Such a scenario is improbable, but not inconcievable.


This is true if you are not a lunatic. Hitler wasn't sane. A week before he killed himself he was still ordering around ARMIES (not divisions, or even corps mind you, but armies) that no longer existed into battle and fully believed they would save Berlin and drive the Red Army back.

Worse than Hitler being a nut job is that he had plenty of devoted minions who would follow his every word like it came down from a mountain written on a tablet.

You have to let the whole common sense thing go when you talk Nazi Germany.
 
If things were even in WW2, perhaps a "Stalemate" between the Germans and Soviets might have been possible. However, things were not even, so it was very basically a simple black or white thing, between these two. One had to win and one had to loose. Germany certainly would not rest, until its primary objective to go to war altogether ("Lemensraum") was fullfilled and the USSR either would not rest, until "Fascism" had been destroyed, for its own savety at the western border.

A better possibility lay in a Stalemate between Germany and the USA, who both had no real interest in eachother's politics and territory, so a "Stalemate" between these two was more likely. The USSR was something never liked by both Axis and Allies, even when forced to ally themselves in both the Molotov - Von Ribbentrop Pact and the Allied coalition after the USSR was invaded by Germany.

SO a Stalemate between Germany and the Allies (Western ones only) was possible, but not between the Germans and Soviets, as both wanted eachother to be extinct, while both had territorial claims on eachothers sphere of influence, or outright parts of the homeland.

Alternatively, A Soviet win in the war against Germany would likely have been succeeded by a conflict with the Western Allies, as these would feel seriously threatened by the USSR. Germany always had been considered to be a buffer between Communism and West. Perhaps General Patton's view of marching beyond Berlin to Moscow was not so strange after all. Alternatively the first Atomic Bombs could have been more influencial, when dropped on Soviet Cities, rather than an already defeated Japan. (as Japan alrerady had no real means of continuing the war itself, rather than suicidal atacks on both land and in the air.)
 
The fundamental problem with any WW2 stalemate scenario is as soon as the USA gets involved (IMVHO that's almost a certainty) then Germany can only survive until the Americans have enough atomic bombs to wipe it out. Even if the UK is knocked out then this will pretty much inevitably happen, what I call the TBO scenario (see: http://www.amazon.com/Big-One-Stuart-Slade/dp/1430304952/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1199983745&sr=1 http://www.tboverse.us/HPCAFORUM/phpBB3/viewforum.php?f=16 and http://tbo.wikidot.com/b-36).

The Germans getting the bomb is so unlikely as to be ASB IMVHO; German scientists had come to believe it was impossible. Indeed Heisenberg initially refused to believe radio reports that the Americans had used atomic bombs against Japan.
The first a WW2 German nuclear physicist would know of an A-bomb being a practical weapon would be when a B-29, or B-36 dropped one on a German city.
 
I think the best bet for a ceasefire would be in 1940 after the Fall of France, or 1944 after a victorious Battle of the Bulge.


Lets say that the Germans manage to wipe out the Bastogne pocket in December, and make a massive push to Antwerp by the end of the month, or Early January, surrounding Monty from the rest of the Allies. With over 1/3 of the WAllies in Europe threatened at being completely wiped out, the Western Allies sue for peace.

Germany receives the Netherlands, Luxembourg, Belgium, and Alsace-Lorraine. The treaty is signed in late January as the Soviets start towards Central Poland. Over 1 Million German soldiers begin to be transferred to the Eastern Front, bogging down the Soviets in Poland, but not making much ground. With W. Allied bombing stopped, the German industry has a chance to recover greatly, rebuilding many tanks and planes, keep the Soviets out of Germany, and slowly pushing them back to Russia, by May, the front lines are that of the start of Barbarossa, both sides absolutely exhausted, the Soviet morale now dead, loosing all of their allies. German morale is at a high with the peace in the West and Soviets slowly retreating. The war will continue to be a stalemate, taking place in Belorussia and East Prussia for most of the time.

By late 1945, the Soviets, embittered in battle with the Germans, sue for a ceasefire. The borders are now similar to that of Brest-Litovsk in 1918, and the war in Europe is over.
 
Lets say that the Germans manage to wipe out the Bastogne pocket in December, and make a massive push to Antwerp by the end of the month, or Early January, surrounding Monty from the rest of the Allies. With over 1/3 of the WAllies in Europe threatened at being completely wiped out, the Western Allies sue for peace.
The problem with that is that the UK has mortgaged its future to winning WW2, there is almost no conceivable scenario post 1940 in which it will sue for peace. I also think that its hardly likely that the Americans would sue for peace after a defeat.
Much more likely is that the Allies will strip troops from other fronts (the UK Home Base and Italy for example) and use them to drive through the German forces, who by now will be out of fuel and at the mercy of the Allied air forces.

What this scenario will do however, is to delay the end of the war in Europe by a few months so that early one morning at an RAF airfield in East Anglia a B-29 bomber flown by Co. Paul Tibbets takes off and heads for a target in Germany.
 
well I learned recently that in 1944 Hitler was suffering from the early stages of Parkinsons disease, so it could be possible that he will either retire or die and have a truce come about, however then we have to judge the physical toll of leading a country that is loseing a war Vs leading a country through a war that Just isn't going anywhere
 
If the Nazi war machine can be exhausted to the point that it simply cannot support further engagement, even Hitler would hae to see sense. I mean, it's not like Hitler will force every single German person to grab whatever they can and charge the Red Army if it comes to that.

I think the fact that he tried to do precisely that shows the flaw in your statement...
 
Top