World War 2 Aircraft Armament

If you search about online there is a motivational speech from and RAF pilot to a US factory where he describes the ability MG to saw off wings but finishes with

' but if you want kill the Hun, 20 millimetre every time, go through the fuselage through the armour on the seat and explode in his chest, blood guts and shit everywhere.'

Wild cheers from the audience.
 
The selection of cartridge types for .50 is quite broad. For some reason, the 211, an HEIAP round, is a popular sniper round.
View attachment 284170

My father-in-law was in a Bren carrier hit by an 88 AP round. Ammunition choice is critical, as he could tell you today.

Certain aces with a good shooting eye favored deflection shooting. Marseilles, the "Lion of Africa", was one who aimed for the pilot from an angle where armor wasn't. He was notably successful and was never shot down. He did discover that early Bf-109G-2Trop DB605 engines lacked reliability, and had no skill at all in bailing out.
 
Certain aces with a good shooting eye favored deflection shooting. Marseilles, the "Lion of Africa", was one who aimed for the pilot from an angle where armor wasn't. He was notably successful and was never shot down. He did discover that early Bf-109G-2Trop DB605 engines lacked reliability, and had no skill at all in bailing out.

Marseille was too good for his own good. His friendly pilots more often than not would watch him work instead of help! Had he survived longer into the war he could've been a fine ace, perhaps lucky for the Allied pilots in North Africa.
 
Sorry, my mistake. He was actually "Star of Africa". He had been a fine ace, in the German press. There were several noted aces in JG27, and they formed a cadre which was assisted by the other pilots in building press-worthy statistics. I don't have a favorable attitude towards JG27, but I'm not in the mood for a rant right now. Leave it at not mourning his loss.
Marseille was too good for his own good. His friendly pilots more often than not would watch him work instead of help! Had he survived longer into the war he could've been a fine ace, perhaps lucky for the Allied pilots in North Africa.
 
Sorry, my mistake. He was actually "Star of Africa". He had been a fine ace, in the German press. There were several noted aces in JG27, and they formed a cadre which was assisted by the other pilots in building press-worthy statistics. I don't have a favorable attitude towards JG27, but I'm not in the mood for a rant right now. Leave it at not mourning his loss.

I would hold a favorable view of Stigler, who flew with JG27.
 
Marseille was so good that sometimes he shot down an aircraft with one round even when that aircraft was several hundreds of miles away sitting on a runway.
 
With generalities, one tends to tar everyone with the same brush. Stigler, likely was an exception. He did parachute 6 times, successfully, and crash landed 11, exceeding even Hartmann in enemy victories. And nobody shot him in his parachute, or in his crashed airplane.
I would hold a favorable view of Stigler, who flew with JG27.
 
Please, you're speaking hyperbole. The Star of Africa used at least 3 rounds to shoot down an aircraft never more than 150 miles away, sitting on a patch of sand barely earning the title, runway.
Marseille was so good that sometimes he shot down an aircraft with one round even when that aircraft was several hundreds of miles away sitting on a runway.
 
The selection of cartridge types for .50 is quite broad. For some reason, the 211, an HEIAP round, is a popular sniper round.
View attachment 284170

My father-in-law was in a Bren carrier hit by an 88 AP round. Ammunition choice is critical, as he could tell you today.

Certain aces with a good shooting eye favored deflection shooting. Marseilles, the "Lion of Africa", was one who aimed for the pilot from an angle where armor wasn't. He was notably successful and was never shot down. He did discover that early Bf-109G-2Trop DB605 engines lacked reliability, and had no skill at all in bailing out.

Marseilles also on occasion shot down more enemy aircraft on his own than were shot down in an entire theatre of war - massive skills ;)

As for his lack of Bailing out skills and not being shot down.....

He was shot down once during the BoB probably by Robert Stanford Tuck of 257 Sqn RAF (Hurricane) and spent 3 hours in the Channel before being rescued by a He59 (he got a massive bollocking upon his return as he had abandoned his Wingman who was subsequently killed that day - in order to go hunting)

He was also shot down not once but twice by the Frenchman James Denis of 73 Sqn RAF (Also Hurricanes) in the desert in April and May 1941 - the first time hitting the cockpit and canopy of Hans-Joachims plane with a good burst that the German was very lucky to have not been hit by.


Sorry, my mistake. He was actually "Star of Africa". He had been a fine ace, in the German press. There were several noted aces in JG27, and they formed a cadre which was assisted by the other pilots in building press-worthy statistics. I don't have a favorable attitude towards JG27, but I'm not in the mood for a rant right now. Leave it at not mourning his loss.


All told he was a remarkable man and great pilot (maybe a bit careless and he wrote off a number of airframes!) and despite being the in the business of killing people he often displayed great humanity in attempting to locate and rescue downed allied pilots in NA and also going to great lengths in informing the British about the condition of downed pilots.

His death was probably as much due to extreme combat exhaustion as much as it was a damaged differential gear.

And JG27 and its superstars was an odd setup that was bound to fail as a unit (and didn't like tackling bombers for some reason!) once the Superstars were all killed (around about the same time that Spitfires arrived in NA - coincidence?) - its morale was so badly shaken by these losses that it had to be withdrawn.
 
I suppose I have some studying to do, if it matters. There was a tendency for pilots of JG 27 to mix it up with escorting fighters and ignore attacking bombers on occasion. There was also a tendency to mix it up with fighters and ignore what was happening to the bombers they were defending, on occasion. Generalities again.

The likes of Stocky Edwards and Killer Caldwell, flying humble Kittyhawks, and the building numerical superiority had as much to do with the demise of JG 27 in theater as the appearance of the Spit VC, tropicalized.
Marseilles also on occasion shot down more enemy aircraft on his own than were shot down in an entire theatre of war - massive skills ;)

As for his lack of Bailing out skills and not being shot down.....

He was shot down once during the BoB probably by Robert Stanford Tuck of 257 Sqn RAF (Hurricane) and spent 3 hours in the Channel before being rescued by a He59 (he got a massive bollocking upon his return as he had abandoned his Wingman who was subsequently killed that day - in order to go hunting)

He was also shot down not once but twice by the Frenchman James Denis of 73 Sqn RAF (Also Hurricanes) in the desert in April and May 1941 - the first time hitting the cockpit and canopy of Hans-Joachims plane with a good burst that the German was very lucky to have not been hit by.





All told he was a remarkable man and great pilot (maybe a bit careless and he wrote off a number of airframes!) and despite being the in the business of killing people he often displayed great humanity in attempting to locate and rescue downed allied pilots in NA and also going to great lengths in informing the British about the condition of downed pilots.

His death was probably as much due to extreme combat exhaustion as much as it was a damaged differential gear.

And JG27 and its superstars was an odd setup that was bound to fail as a unit (and didn't like tackling bombers for some reason!) once the Superstars were all killed (around about the same time that Spitfires arrived in NA - coincidence?) - its morale was so badly shaken by these losses that it had to be withdrawn.
 
I suppose I have some studying to do, if it matters. There was a tendency for pilots of JG 27 to mix it up with escorting fighters and ignore attacking bombers on occasion. There was also a tendency to mix it up with fighters and ignore what was happening to the bombers they were defending, on occasion. Generalities again.

The likes of Stocky Edwards and Killer Caldwell, flying humble Kittyhawks, and the building numerical superiority had as much to do with the demise of JG 27 in theater as the appearance of the Spit VC, tropicalized.

It's thought that at least 1/3 and possibly as many as half of JG27s considerable losses (which include most of the superstars) in Sept 42 were due to the 3 Spitfire Squadrons of the Desert Air Force - one can only wonder what those Kitty hawk pilots might have achieved had Fighter command loosened their grip on the aircraft earlier and not wasted 400 of them (and their pilots) for little gain over France in 41.
 
Indeed, Bob "Lucky" Tuck was one of those 400 pilots. The two pilots mentioned, Caldwell and Edwards both took out two "expertes" each. One, Otto Schulz, was strafing a downed Kittyhawk pilot, and diverted, was himself erased. Edwards claimed a damaged, but confirmation came much later, from the downed pilot's report. Only one was a claimed victory, because the pilot was captured. Lippert died from injuries due to Caldwell's
It's thought that at least 1/3 and possibly as many as half of JG27s considerable losses (which include most of the superstars) in Sept 42 were due to the 3 Spitfire Squadrons of the Desert Air Force - one can only wonder what those Kitty hawk pilots might have achieved had Fighter command loosened their grip on the aircraft earlier and not wasted 400 of them (and their pilots) for little gain over France in 41.
attack. Caldwell achieved later fame by being successful over Darwin in a Spit V, with 2 victories, as against otherwise unpleasant results.
 
Yes, that would be the best solution. Unfortunately it took until 1941 to come up with a Hispano installation that was belt-fed. Exactly why this should be the case is a matter for the Air Ministry to disclose from their bench in hell, especially since IIRC work on it had been done before the war.
I don't remember whether it was a post on the forums are from his internet page but Tony Williams gave a short potted history of the Hispano-Suiza HS.404 development programme that can best be summed up as inertia and bureaucracy as the reasons for why it took so long. As you say they started investigations into the problem and then negotiations with Hispano-Suiza before the war, all it would have taken was some promptness and common sense, not even any extraordinary measures, and it likely could have been successfully dealt with before hostilities started.
 
Tony Williams is apparently still a member of this forum, inactive since 2011. Part of the reason the solutions to questions were so long in coming was that nobody was charged with asking the questions. Then, you have to find someone who has the answers, or can find someone who has solved the problems or has the ability to solve the problems.
I don't remember whether it was a post on the forums are from his internet page but Tony Williams gave a short potted history of the Hispano-Suiza HS.404 development programme that can best be summed up as inertia and bureaucracy as the reasons for why it took so long. As you say they started investigations into the problem and then negotiations with Hispano-Suiza before the war, all it would have taken was some promptness and common sense, not even any extraordinary measures, and it likely could have been successfully dealt with before hostilities started.
 
History, as written, doesn't quite do it for me. I don't know about anyone else. The "story" of Hispano development, particularly belt-feeder development, doesn't create a clear picture for me. French development of the belt feeder wasn't complete, but a French development, the Chatellerault feeder drum, was recovered and delivered to Grantham at close to the last moment before the fall of France. James Martin is credited with the Mk II Hispano feeder system in most accounts. He also developed something called a flat feeder, which doesn't seem that similar. It's patented as his, so it must be his. From Aeroplane Magazine, there was mention of a Westland-developed pneumatic feeder, of which I have read nothing else. While researching certain items, I have often stumbled upon some unrelated factoid about something else entirely. I don't really know what to research to get a good overall picture of Hispano development.
 

Going through the link, it's good to read that Aubrey Dixon, has got a good mention. Too often in books on the BoB 0.303" ammo is referred to as 'de wilde', which just perpetuates RAF propaganda/misinformation of the time While in reality, the de Wilde shells were hand made, no recipes of measurements were made of its active ingredients. So with the money he had been given to productionise the de Wilde shell, he came up with a design that did work, and could be produced in quantity - thank goodness.
 
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