World War 2 against National Socialist Russia!.

I would like some idea for a Scenerio of a alternate World War 2 that would be see the Western Allies against a Fascist/Nazi Russia.

Maybe the Whites win the Russian Civil War and install a Fascistic type Government?, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Beria all liquidated.

Maybe the White Victory is aided by much greater Allied intervention in 1917.

What would a Russian Fascist Government look like?, maybe a General like Spains Franco, with an Autocratic state and a powerfull orthadox Church?.

Could Hitlers Germany be in the Allies?.

All ideas wellcome
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I would like some idea for a Scenerio of a alternate World War 2 that would be see the Western Allies against a Fascist/Nazi Russia.
...the butterflies! They burn!!!

Sorry, a bit dramatic, but a non-Red Russia butterflies everything.

Maybe the Whites win the Russian Civil War and install a Fascistic type Government?, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Beria all liquidated. Maybe the White Victory is aided by much greater Allied intervention in 1917. What would a Russian Fascist Government look like?, maybe a General like Spains Franco, with an Autocratic state and a powerfull orthadox Church?
Time for a cross-post :)
The Whites win in late-1919-early 1920, something that is very, very plausible. A junta is established between Denikin, Wrangel, Kolchak, and Yudenich. It is decided that Wrangel becomes head of government (probably alongside Milyukov and Pepelyayev) while Denikin and Yudenich are put in charge of the military. Kolchak becomes an élément grise in Russian politics, sort of like a Hindenburg-Ludendorff mix; a figure given deference who sort of stays behind the scenes but is the man to call when "decisive measures" must be taken to reestablish "order."

Meanwhile, the near-universally beloved Grand Duke Nikolay becomes Tsar, though this time he is a constitutional monarch with negligible power at best. This not only satisfies traditionalists and democrats, but also provides the nation with an untainted figurehead that pretty much everybody can rally around.

After an ill-fated Russian experiment with parliamentary democracy à la pre-fascist Italy, Kolchak (at the urging of Grand Duke Cyril who ascends the throne in 1929) finally steps in to reestablish "law and order" and becomes the de facto dictator of Russia. People who present a threat to his new order like Denikin and Kutepov and much of the Army high-command will probably be purged.

Kolchak probably dies some time in the '30s. During and after his reign, movements like Aleksandr Kazem-Bek's Mladorossi gains momentum with its unique and popular (and typically fascist) slogans promoting both industrialization/modernization and traditionalism. Mladorossi or something with a similar name but in the same mold becomes the major (and eventually only) political party in Russia.

The charismatic and handsome Kazem-Bek becomes dictator after Kolchak kicks the bucket. How long his rule lasts is debatable due to his being of Azeri stock, but the major point is that his general philosophy of a social monarchy ("Tsar and the Soviets!") becomes the norm. His most likely successor is Anastasy Vonsyatsky (who may not be bigoted enough), or maybe Konstantin Rodzayevsky.

Ethnicities that will most likely be targeted under the Whites (and I'm assuming we have pre-WWII Soviet borders here) are Jews (of course), Poles, Gypsies, Ukrainians (i.e. people who regard themselves as "Ukrainians" rather than "Little Russians"), Volga Germans, Crimean Karaites, possibly Chinese, perhaps Finns, and maybe Azeris depending on if and how far Kazem-Bek falls. Obviously homosexuals and non-Orthodox will be persecuted, the only exception being Muslims. Also expect a great deal of anti-Western sentiment.

Caucasians and Central Asian tribesmen like Kazakhs and Kalmyks and Buryats and Turkmen will in all likelihood not be targeted for two main reasons; the anti-Bolshevism that the majority of these groups displayed, and the distinct lack of general anti-Russian sentiment amongst them. In fact, the tribesmen will probably join the Cossacks in the pantheon of "martial races" (excellent theory, RGB). Again, the fate of Azeris largely depends on the success or failure of Kazem-Bek.

Interestingly, the concept of "sophisticated secret policemen vs. partisan street thugs" like we see exemplified in the rivalry between the SS and SA already existed in Imperial Russia. The "sophisticated" aspect—the Okhrana—will be reestablished, expanded, and revitalized under the leadership of people like Mikhail Diterikhs. The "street thug" element will lie in the resurrected Yellow Shirts under the command of somebody like Lev Okhotin or Gen. Vladimir Kozmin.

Another thing of note is the viability of Konstantin Rodzayevsky as the successor to basically any post. Head of the Okhrana, head of the Yellow Shirts, even Vozhd (or whatever the head honcho spot is called); Rodzayevsk could potentially succeed to any one (or perhaps even two) of these positions.

Basically, the regime we get is a cross between Iron Guard Romania and Francoist Spain alongside some major elements of clerical fascism.

Could Hitlers Germany be in the Allies?
No Red Russia = No Hilter.
 
I would like some idea for a Scenerio of a alternate World War 2 that would be see the Western Allies against a Fascist/Nazi Russia.

Maybe the Whites win the Russian Civil War and install a Fascistic type Government?, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Beria all liquidated.

Maybe the White Victory is aided by much greater Allied intervention in 1917.

What would a Russian Fascist Government look like?, maybe a General like Spains Franco, with an Autocratic state and a powerfull orthadox Church?.

Could Hitlers Germany be in the Allies?

All ideas welcome

Sorry, but post 1917 any such scenario idea would be ASB.
 
There's also the possibility of a disgruntled Bolshevik who would form his own variant of socialism, though without any Marxist tendencies. Mussolini was a former socialist who formed the Fascist Party, I'm sure there could be a Russian variation of Mussolini from among the Bolsheviks. The main point would be that this disgruntled ex-Bolshevik would fall prey to some dose of anti-Semitism and probably forms his own unlikely triumvirate with himself, another ex-Bolshevik and a White general. Of course, this would butterfly Hitler's Reich but let's say some other German nationalist would be attracted to non-Marxist National Socialism. That could work.
 
There's also the possibility of a disgruntled Bolshevik who would form his own variant of socialism, though without any Marxist tendencies. Mussolini was a former socialist who formed the Fascist Party, I'm sure there could be a Russian variation of Mussolini from among the Bolsheviks. The main point would be that this disgruntled ex-Bolshevik would fall prey to some dose of anti-Semitism and probably forms his own unlikely triumvirate with himself, another ex-Bolshevik and a White general. Of course, this would butterfly Hitler's Reich but let's say some other German nationalist would be attracted to non-Marxist National Socialism. That could work.

Unless you can point to a specific OTL person, such speculation is pointless handwavium and hocus pocus.
 
Unless you can point to a specific OTL person, such speculation is pointless handwavium and hocus pocus.

I've got one: Ivan Smirnov who was a Bolshevik in OTL. He could have been expelled from the Bolshevik Party for expressing his frustrations towards certain sensitive issues (like he initially supports Trotsky's plans for a world revolution, but becomes disgruntled when Lenin warns other Bolsheviks against Great Russian Chauvinism. Smirnov, a proud Russian, angrily rebukes Lenin for his warning and is expelled.)

Smirnov was actually called up for military service in the Tomsk garrison in OTL, but because he was expelled from the Bolshevik Party, he actually remains in the military until the Russian Civil War, where he fought alongside the Whites and became an officer under Kolchak. Finally, Smirnov draws on his experience as a Bolshevik and creates his own non-Marxist socialist party with himself and a few White leaders as the core cadres.

Here's a link to Smirnov in wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Nikitich_Smirnov

Also, Stalin may have been qualified as a national socialist, although his ideology may have been qualified as a fascist ideology. Other than that, there's also the Russian Fascist Party that can easily go down national socialist under Konstantin Rodzaevsky or Count Vonsyatsky.
 
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