World War 2.5

This is my third and hopefully final attempt at what i call WW2.5, making WW2 as big as logically possible, while still being somewhat recognisable. Seeing as making it bigger generally boils down to bulking up the Axis, it could even equate to an Axis victory, but i'm not 100% sure on that one.

I'm planning to make a TL based on it, but i'm not 100% sure how it would all go, hence this thread.

Disclaimer:

I'm aware that not all these ideas are mine, many are from other AH threads and i'm not claiming them as my own. If i used something you came up with, feel free to claim that idea as yours in this thread. Also, if i used it, that means i thought it was an interesting idea.

  • Mussolini and Salazar convince Vargas to turn Estado Novo in a more fascist direction. Perhaps tying Brazil closer to the Rome-Berlin-Tokyo Axis, as i saw discussed somewhere, not sure where.
  • The Dutch Nazi Party comes to power, perhaps in a coup, any way is okay.
    The Dutch stay neutral at first, but before Fall Gelb, Hitler discusses his plans with Anton Mussert and tries to get him to join the Axis as part of the invasion. Perhaps he has to threaten the Dutch with occupation to get them to join in. Either way, they accept in the end and join Germany in the invasion of France and the other low countries.
  • The Italians have a better military. Not 100% how to get this done, but this thread has some good ideas. I'm not carbon-copying this thread, but rather some of the basic things that improve Italy's army.
  • The payment mode for German armament firms is made more rational, resulting in much greater efficiency in the use of resources.
  • The Axis design tanks with sloping armour.
  • Prestige building projects in Germany and some early armament projects of dubious value are cancelled and the money saved is put into stockpiles of strategic materials.
  • Thailand aligns with Japan during the Second Sino-Japanese war, then fully contributing to the Pacific war.
  • Finland is actually prepared for the Winter War, and Sweden decides to help out it's neighbour. Due to the Soviets' shear weight of numbers, Finland eventually signs the peace treaty, but only looses Karelia, and of course, the Soviets loose far more men.
    Also, when Stalin declares war on Finland, starting the Continuation War, maybe he declares war on Sweden too, or Sweden simply backs up Finland once more. Granted Sweden is hardly a great power, but it's another country to fight.
  • The UK do either Operation Wilfred or The R-4 Plan, putting Norway in the Axis camp, also souring Britain's favour with the USA.
    In resonce to the attack, the Germans invade Denmark as in OTL to get a strategic advantage from where to enter Norway and expell the British.
  • Better German tactics in the Battle of the River Plate save the Graf Spee, perhaps sinking the Exeter in the process in they're lucky.
    Graf Spee retreats into Montevideo and the British shell the port, this gives pro-Axis Brazil and Argentina a reason to join the war. Of course if they do, so does Uruguay, and likely pro-Axis Paraguay
    Also, after the fall of France and the various other nations joining the Axis, Venezula declares war on Britian to get it's hands on British Guyana, and perhaps some of their Carribean possessions.
  • Iceland had no military to speak of, but let's say it does what little it can to resist British occupation, leading to a civilian resistance.
    Seeing as Akureyri, Iceland's second largest city fell a week after Reykjavik, perhaps citizens there, hearing of the invasion could mount a resistance with what little weapons they have.
  • The Germans run right up to the channel in time to stop Operation Dynamo, thereby killing or capturing over 300,000 Allied troops.
  • Perhaps build one Monster, use it in battle then tell the world they have many, many more.
  • Mussolini warns his merchant fleet about the coming war as opposed to having them totally unprepared, then launches a suprise attack against Malta and Tunisia with German support instead of launching a pointless attack into France.
  • Spain joins the Axis in exchange for Gibraltar and Morocco, just aafter Italy yet before the fall of France. Not a new conecpt i know, but something to throw into the mix.
    This allows Gibraltar to be seiged and maybe even taken, severing a major Allied supply route.
  • Italy doesn't attack Greece, although Metaxes, who greatly looked up to Mussolini and Hitler, joins the war on the Axis side.
  • Charles DeGaul is killed in the fall of France. This probably wouldn't stop there being a French resistance, but it will weaken it a lot.
  • The Germans have more secure codes, codes that are not broken by the allies.
  • Yugoslav coup fails, so basically an Axis Yugoslavia.
  • Anti-colonial/pro-Axis uprisings in Syria and Yemen like the one in Iraq.
  • The IRA actually comes up with the 50,000 die hard soldiers they promised instead of the 300 errand boys they produced
  • The Finnish do what they can to pressure the Germans into creating an 'independant' Lithanian puppet state in the manner of The Slovak Republic during the invasion of the USSR, thereby gaining support from the Lithuanians. Not decisive, but it helps
  • In October 1941, the British and Soviets issued an ultimatum to the Afghans demanding that they expel all Germans and Italians. They did. But let's assume they didn't and suffered the same fate as Iran, thereby bogging down more Allied troops fighting against the 75,000 thousand Afghan troops. Granted this would have been reasonably easy, but again, another drain on the allies.
  • The Ecuadorian-Peruvian war spills over into something bigger.
    I've seen it discussed on here before but i can't for the life of me remember what the thread was called. Either was, it was discussed that Chile, Colombia, Bolivia and for some reason, El Salvador may have attacked Peru due to a mixture of old grudges and terrible judgement (Don't remember the exact reasons).
    It becomes a stalemate at first, then Ecuador and their allies ask for Axis support. Wary of the Monroe doctrine the European Axis don't declare war on Peru, but rather send supplies and millitary advisors.
    However, the South American Axis (Brazil, Venezula, Uruguay, Argentina and Paraguay, see earlier POD for how they entered the war) do declare war.
  • The Japanese hit the submarine yard, oil tanks and dry docks at Pearl Harbour.
  • Make the Azad Hind more active, add a couple of anti-British uprisings to the mix.

I should add that it's ALL of these PODs, not just one.

My guess is that all this adds up to a MUCH larger war, perhaps lasting over a decade with over 100 million casualties. Although, Greece and the Netherlands will likely actually fare better in this TL than OTL, seeing as they'll only be occupied by the allies towards the end of the war, as opposed to occupied by the Axis for years, then invaded by the allies, but that's of little consequence.

I'm also fairly certain that Turkey can be drawn into the Axis by having very little choice, seeing as the fall of Gibraltar and Malta would make Egypt much harder to supply, coupled with the added Axis troops in Africa, Suez may very well fall, bringing Turkey into the Axis sphere of influence and eventually the Axis.

Another question i have is what would Salazar do during all this? My guess is he either joins the Axis or becomes an Axis non-belligerent. I wouldn't doubt if he sent a volunteer division to Russia as Spain did OTL.

Thanks in advance everyone, hopefully i won't bother you guys with another thread like this again, instead it'll be a nice shiny TL :cool:
 
Some of the stuff here requires prescience on part of Axis (mostly no prestige projects, sloped armor, more rational German requisition system). Thailand joining Japan is difficult, as Thailand/Siam has zero inclination to do so. What does it ave to gain?

Any South American countries joining Axis? I do not see it. Economically all of them are tied with USA which can quite literaly strangle them. Even if they tried to cooperate, they would not ave any way to contribute war effort or economics of Axis simply because they have no means to do it.

Any resistance Iceland might put up would be crushed within hours? day? two at most. Basically it helps no body in any way at all. Least of Icelanders.

As I am writing this on a mobile device, it is a bit ard for me to go point by point, so I will leave the rest to somebody else.
 
Some of the stuff here requires prescience on part of Axis (mostly no prestige projects, sloped armor, more rational German requisition system). Thailand joining Japan is difficult, as Thailand/Siam has zero inclination to do so. What does it ave to gain?

Hmm, that's true, but the part about them participating more in the Pacific war can happen.

Any South American countries joining Axis? I do not see it. Economically all of them are tied with USA which can quite literaly strangle them. Even if they tried to cooperate, they would not ave any way to contribute war effort or economics of Axis simply because they have no means to do it.

Well, none of them would be joining the war after America did. They would join for various other reasons, then be thrown into a war with the USA without any easy way out. I maintain it could happen, it may not end well for them overall, but it could happen.

Any resistance Iceland might put up would be crushed within hours? day? two at most. Basically it helps no body in any way at all. Least of Icelanders.

I know that, but that doesn't mean the people won't do everything they can to defend their country
 
The British shelling Montevideo is extremely unlikley to the point of absurdity. At the time Uruguay was very pro-British and would not allow the Graf Spee to stay in port the time the Germans claimed they needed. They stuck carefully to the internationally agreed neutrality rules. In fact after the confusion of the first day, the British tried to get the Uruguayans to keep the Graf Spee in port for longer than they had initially agreed to. This was to allow the various RN ships steaming for the area time to get there.

The British resorted to manipulating the 24 hour rule by ordering British flagged merchant ships to sail in subsequent days until Uruguay stopped it (Under neutrality rules, this prevented the Graf Spee from sailing for 24 hours after the departure of a belligerent flagged ship).

There was absolutely no reason to shell Montevideo. In a few days there would be sufficient force off the port to ensure that Graf Spee could not break out and Uruguay was fully prepared to intern the ship should it not sail.
 
The British shelling Montevideo is extremely unlikley to the point of absurdity. At the time Uruguay was very pro-British and would not allow the Graf Spee to stay in port the time the Germans claimed they needed. They stuck carefully to the internationally agreed neutrality rules. In fact after the confusion of the first day, the British tried to get the Uruguayans to keep the Graf Spee in port for longer than they had initially agreed to. This was to allow the various RN ships steaming for the area time to get there.

The British resorted to manipulating the 24 hour rule by ordering British flagged merchant ships to sail in subsequent days until Uruguay stopped it (Under neutrality rules, this prevented the Graf Spee from sailing for 24 hours after the departure of a belligerent flagged ship).

There was absolutely no reason to shell Montevideo. In a few days there would be sufficient force off the port to ensure that Graf Spee could not break out and Uruguay was fully prepared to intern the ship should it not sail.

I do wonder why so many of these WWII timelines require the British to behave like complete morons.
 
  • The IRA actually comes up with the 50,000 die hard soldiers they promised instead of the 300 errand boys they produced
This is a serious non-starter. In OTL 5000 Irish army soldiers deserted to sever with the British, plus all the civilians who signed up to fight the Nazi's.
 
I do wonder why so many of these WWII timelines require the British to behave like complete morons.

Maybe the Draka stupid virus is really contagius and is spreading.
More seriusly, things like Italy getting a little better armed forces and save much of his merchant marine are doable.
Immediate attack on Malta and Tunisia doable, and can be succefull...but it will dry a lot of italian resources (expecially Malta)
A rationalization of the German production/payment system can be done and don't require any ASB.
The rest? Only if Stirlling wrote WWII, honestly you aks what happen if the Axis roll every time a natural 20 and the Allies get only abysmall failure
 
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This is a serious non-starter. In OTL 5000 Irish army soldiers deserted to sever with the British, plus all the civilians who signed up to fight the Nazi's.

Yeah, but the IRA weren't the legitimate army of Eire. I'm not denying that there were pro-British sentiments in Ireland, but the IRA was there too. They didn't do much OTL, there was activity, but it accomplished very little.

I'm simply suggesting expanding their activity to the level they promised the Nazis
 
My fault - I wasn't clear. The shelling is an accident, they meant to hit the Graf Spee but were just really reckless about it.

It still requires incredible stupidity, since the Graf Spee will now be interned by the Uruguayans. And what better tactics are you envisioning for one warship against three? When the one still has battle damage? There is simply no reason for the British to go chasing after the Graf Spee into Montevideo.

Oh and on the Norway situation you realize the British did carry out Operation Wilfred? And they had already violated Norwegian neutrality during the Altmark incident, Norway played it down because they wanted to stay out of the war. For that matter the British were about to invade ala Plan R-4 when the Germans beat them to it.
The notion that this is going to alienate the US, after what Germany has done in Czechslovakia and Poland, and will shortly do to Belgium is a stretch to say the least. At a more basic strategic level you have to remember that Roosevelt didn't help Britain because he was fond of us; he did so to counter the clear threat from Nazi Germany. Short of the Royal Navy shelling the Statue of Liberty I can't think of anything that would change that assessment.
 
Yeah, but the IRA weren't the legitimate army of Eire. I'm not denying that there were pro-British sentiments in Ireland, but the IRA was there too. They didn't do much OTL, there was activity, but it accomplished very little.

I'm simply suggesting expanding their activity to the level they promised the Nazis

yes, and I'm saying it would require the ASBs to achieve it. The small numbers the IRA could raise reflected the reality of the time, there is simply no way they could have had the logistics or organization to raise such a force; it was nothing but empty bluster.

Again it seems like with every POD something bad happens for the British that either requires ASB intervention or monumental stupidity. On the other hand you have the two nations run by megalomaniacs with no talent for military matters suddenly becoming rational, insightful and nigh on prescient.
A few errors or bits of luck are fine with PODs but when you start stretching things too far in either direction you lose all plausibility.
 
A couple more PODs that caught my eye:

  • Charles DeGaul is killed in the fall of France. This probably wouldn't stop there being a French resistance, but it will weaken it a lot.
I assume you mean the Free French? Because De Gaulle had little to do with forming the French resistance, the Communist elements certainly had nothing to do with him. The SOE helped to organize what started out as small scale responses to the actions of the Germans in France.


  • The Germans have more secure codes, codes that are not broken by the allies.
How exactly? They upgraded Enigma periodically and the Allies found a way to crack it every time from the capture of codebooks from weather ships and U-Boats to the development of bombes. You can't simply handwave all that away.
 
A couple more PODs that caught my eye:

I assume you mean the Free French? Because De Gaulle had little to do with forming the French resistance, the Communist elements certainly had nothing to do with him. The SOE helped to organize what started out as small scale responses to the actions of the Germans in France.

Ah yes, my bad, i did mean that, thanks for spotting that.

How exactly? They upgraded Enigma periodically and the Allies found a way to crack it every time from the capture of codebooks from weather ships and U-Boats to the development of bombes. You can't simply handwave all that away.

You seem to be implying that the allies breaking Axis codes was inevitable. I don't think that the Axis having codes that the allies couldn't break is by any means impossible.
 
yes, and I'm saying it would require the ASBs to achieve it. The small numbers the IRA could raise reflected the reality of the time, there is simply no way they could have had the logistics or organization to raise such a force; it was nothing but empty bluster.

Okay, in your opinion, how many could they have raised, maximum?

Again it seems like with every POD something bad happens for the British that either requires ASB intervention or monumental stupidity. On the other hand you have the two nations run by megalomaniacs with no talent for military matters suddenly becoming rational, insightful and nigh on prescient.
A few errors or bits of luck are fine with PODs but when you start stretching things too far in either direction you lose all plausibility.

I see what you're driving at, but it's not strictly true.

You said that every bad thing that happens to the British requires ASB intervention. I think Spain declaring war on the Allies is bad for the British, yet not ASB, same for anti-colonial uprisings.

But in your opinion, which of these could and couldn't have happened?
I maintain they all could, but the whole reason i posted this was to see what others thought.
 
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