World War 1845

On the presidency and vice-presidency

I think I have Worth stepping down as Vice-President for the 1856 election - in OTL he was dead by then, but the very different circumstances of the ATL serve well enough to keep him alive *(he was only born in 1794).

Since Franklin Pierce was Secretary of State in the first term, he seems a fair bet to jump at the chance of being Vice President for the second term. Born in 1804 he is a good age for it (and hasn't suffered his OTL family trauma)

Thus the 1856 election is won by Kearny/Pierce

By 1860 Kearny is 64; now, this is not prohibitive of running. IIRC in this timeline, I had Burr go for his third term whilst in his early sixties. BUT that example might well not sit too well with the major figures of the American Party - Burr's third term led to his party's defeat in the subsequent election (I think ! I tried to remind myself of all this before leaving this morning, but couldn't easily chase down information, despite it being my own timeline !)

Interestingly, Phillip Kearny, the nephew of the president, is probably somebody pretty important in the US army by 1860. Born in 1815, in OTL he gave up his army career in 1851 due to lack of promotion prospects and buggered off to Europe for a while. But here he can well act as part of the Army of the South West, and probably has the joy of shooting revolting Spaniards in Chihuahua and chasing after Apache

Anyway, that was a digression :) in case you didn't notice !

The question I guess is
-1- Who would be put up, or put themselves up, for the candidacy in 1860 ?
-2- Would the party decide not to rock the boat and keep Kearny, or go for one of these ?
-3- Would Franklin Pierce have a shot ? If not, would he be happy to be remain as VP, or would he only remain there if Kearny remains as president ?
-4- If not Pierce for VP then whom ? Going with military leaders upgrading to political ones, where does Robert E Lee (Sec of War in the 1850s here) fit in ? Could we see a weird Pierce/Lee presidency ?!

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
It would seem that the city of Matamoros was only called that after a Mexican independence hero, so since this remained Spanish territory in the ATL it would not bear that name

Wiki kindly mentions that the city was renamed in his honour, but doesn't bother to tell me what it was called before !

Anybody know ???

Best Regards
Grey Wolf

The origin of this city goes back to 1774, when a group of 13 families from Reynosa and Camargo settled on ranches in these territories. They named the area San Juan de los Esteros, (Saint John of the Estuaries), after the many swamps found in the region, due to flooding caused by frequent overflowing of the Rio Grande.
In 1826, the name of the city changed to Matamoros in honor to a hero of the independence
from
http://www.bestday.com/Matamoros/

La Villa del Refugio (Town of Shelter/Refuge)
In 1793 Franciscan friars from the Apostólico de Guadalupe Zacatecas college arrived to the congregation and proposed a new name for the community. Keeping in mind the patron saint of the missionaries, the area was renamed "Nuestra Señora del Refugio de los Esteros" (Our Lady of the Refuge of the Beautiful Marshes).

The inhabitants came to know the area as "El Refugio" (The Refuge) o "Villa del Refugio" (Town of Refuge). As a result of the frequent flooding, the original site of "Villa del Refugio" was changed. In 1814 it was relocated to the main plaza which was considered the highest area in the township.


Villa de Matamoros (Town of Matamoros)
In 1826 governor Lucas Fernández issues a decreed assigning a new name to "Villa del Refugio". The governor baptized the city as "Villa de Matamoros" in honor of the independence hero don Mariano Matamoros.

from
http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Matamoros,-Tamaulipas

So...for a brief while it had the rather beautiful name of San Juan de los Esteros then some monks got in on the act and gave it the weird name of Nuestra Señora del Refugio de los Esteros that everyone immediately referred to by the crappy name of Villa del Refugio, which translates as Refuge City !

No wonder they renamed it...

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Hi Grey,

Freedonia risks encirclement by the USA.
How is their relation with USA and how do they see slavery?

Best Regards,
Archangel
 
Hi Grey,

Freedonia risks encirclement by the USA.
How is their relation with USA and how do they see slavery?

Best Regards,
Archangel

I'm reckoning that for the moment their relations with the USA are OK since the US has so many other things on its hands. Those who advocate annexation of Fredonia probably consider it to be inevitable in the long-run so won't push it.

The Fredonian attitude towards slavery is a good question. Formed by fillibusterers and vagabonds, one can imagine that few who settled there brought slaves with them, but at the same time it would not have been a haven for runaways - such would have seriously upset the Trans-Mississippi states whom they relied on for many things

Its probably like how Britain used to be in the 18th century - a person's property was their property, but the institution of slavery was not one practised there.

Economically Fredonia is only just developing its own industries during the 1850s, and is reliant to a large degree on US parent companies - perhaps luckily for Fredonia this finance would be split between the NE and the SE powerhouses, and would also include via transmission a large degree of what is at its heart French finance

I am thinking of Edward Clark as president by the end of the 1850s, on the basis that some of those who in OTL migrated to Tejas would in the ATL have gone to Fredonia instead - OTL Clark moved in 1842 so its well before the 2 new Tejas states were even US territory

Best Regards
grey Wolf
 
I envision the American Party as having a large proportion of ex-army men, and being focused mainly on a national agenda

- the expansion and strategic development of railroads
- the encouragement of settlement in the new territories, including land grants to veterans, and encouraging entrepreneurs
- getting territories ready for statehood
- bringing Indian Nations into the list of Civilised Tribes
- developing the ports in the new lands

Thus, they come to be characterised by those against them as being the party of the military, of veterans, of entrepreneurs, and Indians

Hope to see some comments, lol, by the time I get back :)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
Fredonia - with Edward Clark as President, I am thinking that George Bickley offers a very interesting figure to be working in his administration, perhaps as Fredonia's Secretary of State. I had considered him as leader of the Opposition but reckoned that only in a position of power would he be able to advance some of his more grandiose schemes and follies

I could certainly see a Knights of the Golden Circle type of movement, with Bickley believein he is laying semi-mythic seeds for future Fredonian domination of the remaining Spanish and Indian lands. He would certainly be the type of politician to encourage fillibustering expeditions, and with a border on the Spanish Viceroyalty that largely abuts land empty of Spaniards, there would certainly be opportunity for this

I am thinking that the great event to move all of this forward would be the discovery of large quantities of gold in California, something which in this timeline has been substantially retarded by circumstances

The main Spanish focus in building up the ViceRoyalty of California as a territorial holding capable of holdings its own against the USA has been in the South. With the USA having annexed San Diego, the Californian capital of Monterey and the major port city of Los Angeles both would have seemed under threat. Thus, initially from Manila, and later direct from Spain itself would have come soldiers, warships, administrators, engineers and settlers to build up Spain's defensive position in the South

Thus, the coast from Los Angeles up to Monterey would have been developed, Smaller naval settlements would adhere to San Francisco, but the development of its hinterland would be much delayed in comparison to OTL

In fact, it could well be only when fillibustering expeditions supported by Bickley seem to threaten the internal provinces that Spain sends out a major expedition into these, which includes building up San Francisco to logistically support it, and in the process revealing the gold seams in the area.

If we date all this to 1861-2, then by 1863 Spain is dealing with the complications that this is beginning to cause them. Illegal American and Columbian immigrants, and quite probably some Mexicans, would all come by ship, whilst Spanish patrols inland are having to deal with Indians stirred up by the Fredonians, Fredonian fillibusterers themselves, and desertions amongst their own number where many a soldier sees a greater chance to make his fortune by rushing to the gold fields

King Carlos V of Spain had died in the late 1850s (giving him a couple of years on his OTL span), and his son (who would be named Carlos, regardless of exact dates of birth in comparison to OTL) has ascended as King Carlos VI. In this timeline, also probably married to a princess of the Two Sicilies, we can allow their more settled life, always destined to reign, to have produced children.

Thus, aged in his mid to late forties, and having been on the throne about 5 years, Carlos VI has to face the challenge of an influx of foreigners to work the gold fields. The option of recruiting Spaniards to head out there and work is a problematic one and one that when tried tends to attract criminals, adventurers, and the footloose, men whose arrival in California does nothing to make the job of the authorities are more easy

Pressed by the government in Madrid, he agrees to send his brother Prince Juan out as Viceroy, retiring the aristocrat whose initial promise has turned sour with the gold.

Meanwhile, Spain presses London, Washington and Topeka to retrict emigration, but receives little of any value by way of a reply.


Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
If there are no more comments, I'll get on with writing the beginnings of Part 3 "The Time of Eagles" (TOTE)

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
A second British army took Buffalo, only to be defeated by a US force hastily gathered under General William Worth, of New York. Harried by a US pursuit which included hot-air balloons amongst its armoury
The balloons would've been tethered. They'd have exposed the Brits on the march & enabled Worth to prepare a defense, but been useless in pursuit. See my comments on the "prequel" thread (sorry, don't recall the name:() for other effects.
It was only when the Cherokee Volunteers, spoiling for a fight to redeem their honour, had challenged the men to a duel en masse, that the Fredonians had backed down
I somehow doubt they'd back down from a duel...
what many were now openly calling "Canadian interests"
I'm afraid that's pretty anachronistic. Recall as late as 1903, HMG was still deciding things for Canada,:eek: with British interests foremost.:mad:
proto-parliament at Ottawa
I'm afraid that's anachronistic, too. Ottawa wasn't capital yet; it wasn't selected til 1857. And without the Rideau Canal, it wouldn't be built at all. (Of course, as I noted here, that would be in response to American incursions/threat long since... You just didn't mention it.:D)
(Quietly rooting for either independent HBC Co. or sale the USA :rolleyes:).
HBC's out of the question, I'm afraid. OTL, the fur trade would shortly collapse:eek: & HBC was already losing ground to competition. Moreover, it was angling to be sold to HMG for several years (maybe not yet OTL). It might not die out entirely, but to control Rupert's Land was increasingly impossible. It would already be impossible TTL, because of the demands for defense against U.S. incursions leading to increasing numbers of troops, settlers, railway lines.... More to the point, & something I should've thought of before, around the OTL time of Oregon troubles, HMG formed the colony of BC as a defense against further U.S. incursion northward; TTL, BC, MB, Assinboine/Athabaska (SK)/Alberta/Manitoba, & maybe others, would be carved out of Rupert's Land, which HMG would rapidly purchase & "colonize"...
I guess in one way I am asking whether the slavery v abolition question needs to end up on opposite sides of the political divide, or whether those holding these views could end up being seen as 'fundamentalist' whilst a truer picture is a divide on a different basis but a consensus more or less on the question of slavery
I think you are bound to get the question Lincoln asked OTL, "Can a country survive half slave, half free?" Whatever party he ends up in, the question will be asked, & it's liable to lead to trouble... If increased industrialization leads to a belief in the South there's less need for slaves (an open question, IMO), manumission may be an acceptable solution, & may be possible without civil war--provided it isn't perceived as being imposed on them.
 
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I explained why Ottawa was selected as capital, and how the government gained autonomy from Britain in the thread I think

Best Regards
Grey Wolf
 
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