World Touring Car Champion from late-60s / early-70s

[Masked Grizzly]

Don't know how doable it is, though could the European Touring Car Championship / ETCC have ever evolved or spawned into an alternate World Touring Car Championship / WTCC starting from late-60s / early-70s?

Am envisioning a wide variety of touring cars of different sizes and engine displacements being allowed to race together from the likes of the small Fiat 500 and Hillman Imp to large Jaguar's or Mercedes's along with various "Muscle Cars" from America (as well as in places like Australia, South Africa, Brazil and the UK).

 

[TheMann]

It's possible, but it has the problem of needing factory support and common rules, which for touring cars didn't exist in any real form until the early 1980s. As you point out, the gap between the Fiat 500 / Hillman Imp / Mini Cooper cars up to the enormous Chevrolet Camaro / Ford Mustang / Ford Galaxie / Holden Commodore / Mercedes-Benz 450SEL / Jaguar XJ12 is so huge that it would probably be unsafe to have them on the same track, as a Fiat 500 has a top speed of 70 mph which the most of those could hit in second gear.

Best bets for this at the time (and remember that the Trans-Am series in the USA would also qualify for this) would be to divide it up by classes, with a minicar (Under 2 liters) class, a touring car class (up to 4 liters) and a heavyweight class (over 4 liters). Even this becomes difficult, because cars like the Ford Escort RS 1600 are in the bottom category, while there aren't many European cars in the middle one.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

It's possible, but it has the problem of needing factory support and common rules, which for touring cars didn't exist in any real form until the early 1980s. As you point out, the gap between the Fiat 500 / Hillman Imp / Mini Cooper cars up to the enormous Chevrolet Camaro / Ford Mustang / Ford Galaxie / Holden Commodore / Mercedes-Benz 450SEL / Jaguar XJ12 is so huge that it would probably be unsafe to have them on the same track, as a Fiat 500 has a top speed of 70 mph which the most of those could hit in second gear.

Best bets for this at the time (and remember that the Trans-Am series in the USA would also qualify for this) would be to divide it up by classes, with a minicar (Under 2 liters) class, a touring car class (up to 4 liters) and a heavyweight class (over 4 liters). Even this becomes difficult, because cars like the Ford Escort RS 1600 are in the bottom category, while there aren't many European cars in the middle one.

The smaller cars were a lot faster in racing spec, even the Fiat 500 whether as an Abarth or related Steyr-Puch 500 TR / TR II, while in the BTCC for example it was not unusual seeing American cars like the Chevrolet Camaro and Ford Mustang racing against Minis, Imps, Escorts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_British_Touring_Car_Championship_season

It would be interesting to see regional branches of large carmakers like Ford racing against each other.

 

[Nicola]

also be interesting to see 'Muscle cars' on a circuit like Mallory or Cadwell

 

[Totara Flat Rifles]

MKIII Holden Monaro

400 cubic inches twin turbos 700 Bhp

 

[TheMann]

The smaller cars were a lot faster in racing spec, even the Fiat 500 whether as an Abarth or related Steyr-Puch 500 TR / TR II, while in the BTCC for example it was not unusual seeing American cars like the Chevrolet Camaro and Ford Mustang racing against Minis, Imps, Escorts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1970_British_Touring_Car_Championship_season

It would be interesting to see regional branches of large carmakers like Ford racing against each other.

Yes, but there is too much of a problem there with what tracks they race on, and the fact that with a world championship better preparation is gonna make cars like the Imp hopelessly slow in a straight line, even if they are the superior in the corners. Cars like the Escort RS 1600 could do the job, but machines like the Mini or the Imp are gonna end up being outclassed by the more powerful machines. Unless you are willing to do a multiple-class system like the BTCC did, you won't end up with the little cars being able to keep up.

I agree that it would be interesting to see, but I'd figure it would quickly get dominated by the cars like the Trans-Am series of the time, with the Boss 302 Mustangs, Z/28 Camaros and AAR Dodge Challengers ruling the series simply through sheer horsepower, though cars like the Mercedes 450SEL 6.9, Jaguar XJ12, Holden Monaro HT and Ford Falcon GT could probably keep up with them. Great handling would keep cars like the Mini Cooper S, Alfa Romeo 2000GTV, Ford Escort RS1600, Triumph Dolomite Sprint and Toyota Corolla Sprinter in the hunt, the sad fact is that the five-liter engines of the big Yank machines on most tracks in the world are going to invariably dominate. Australia's touring car championship is a classic case of this - in the 1960s, most of the entrants had the sort of cars that also ran in Europe, but once Holden, Ford and Chrysler got into the act, they ran the Europeans out by 1973 or so. Now, big-inch cars from Mercedes-Benz, BMW, Jaguar and the like could fight back against the big guns, but other than weighing down the big machines you'll invariably end up with them dominating.

Much would depend on where they were racing, too. Places like Spa (as it was in the early 70s), Silverstone, Bathurst, Monza, Road America and many other good touring car tracks would be so fast that cars with less than four-liter engines would never have a chance. Britain's championship in 1970 that you mentioned included the tracks at Snetterton, Thruxton, Crystal Palace, Croft and Brands Hatch, none of which (with the possible exception of the last one) are straight enough for the big inch cars to bury machines like Bill McGovern's Hillman Imp or somebody with a 500 Abarth with sheer horsepower. On those tracks, they have a chance. But a World Championship is going to invariably add places like the fast tracks I mentioned above, where cars like the Imp are going to be hopelessly uncompetitive.

 

[TheMann]

also be interesting to see 'Muscle cars' on a circuit like Mallory or Cadwell

Mallory would be kinda scary in a racing Camaro Z/28 without the chicanes it has now. Cadwell is too narrow to be effective as a race track in modern times, unfortunately.

 

[TheMann]

As for a world championship in the 1970s, I think it would be possible starting about 1968 or so, by combining the best events from both America and Europe and adding a few choice places from outside those two such as Bathurst. As far as what places would be up, that would be a good debate to have.

 

[TheMann]

To sorta add to this, what would have been had the FIA not withdrawn homologation for the World Touring Car Championship that ran in 1987? It started off slowly but didn't stay there long. The 1987 series included the Spa 24 Hours, RAC Tourist Trophy and Bathurst 1000, and I think it could easily expand further. So, how about it?

Firstly, it needs at least one round in the Americas. (Literally, the 1987 series had zero rounds in the Western Hemisphere.) The best bet I think for this would be starting the series in Latin America and then running rounds in the United States and Canada (Canada had no GP in 1988, so its an obvious pick) before bolting to Europe in early May. Running in Canada in late April may be a tad risky, but the Canadian GP for years ran in October so its possible. From there, Dijon and Monza are in May and Jarama in June, allowing the Nurburgring 24 Hours to run in late June in its traditional space. Brno goes to the WSC, so it goes out, leaving a gap. I'd fill this with a round in Scandinavia (Helsinki or Anderstorp are the best bets) in July and then Spa at the end of July, followed two weeks later by the two British rounds, with the first being a race at Donington Park and the second being the Tourist Trophy at Silverstone. Those done, its off to Japan for a round at either Suzuka or Fuji in mid-September, then to Bathurst and Phillip Island and finishing off in New Zealand at Wellington. This gives you a 1988 season of:

1) Autodromo Municipal Buenos Aires, Buenos Aires, Argentina (March 19)
2) Fair Park, Dallas, Texas, United States (April 10)
3) Mosport Park, Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada (April 24)
4) Circuit de Dijon-Prenois, Dijon, France (May 8)
5) Autodromo National di Monza, Monza, Italy (May 22)
6) Circuito del Jarama, Madrid, Spain (June 5)
7) Nurbrugring Nordschleife, Nurburg, Germany (June 25-26)
8) Helsinki Thunder, Helsinki, Finland (July 17)
9) Circuit de Spa-Francorchamps (July 30-31)
10) Donington Park, Leicestershire, United Kingdom (August 14)
11) Silverstone Circuit, Northamptonshire, United Kingdom (August 28)
12) Fuji Speedway, Oyama, Japan (September 11)
13) Mount Panorama Circuit, Bathurst, New South Wales, Australia (October 2)
14) Phillip Island Grand Prix Circuit, Phillip Island, Victoria, Australia (October 9)
15) Wellington City Circuit, Wellington, New Zealand (October 23)

Now, with the Americans now involved, you can expect some American cars involved - and indeed Group A isn't bad for them. The best cars of the era are the Ford Sierra Cosworth, BMW M3, Mercedes-Benz 190E 2.5-16, Jaguar XJS, Nissan Skyline R30 GTS, Toyota Supra Turbo, Holden Commodore VK SS and Alfa Romeo 75 Turbo. The 1987 WTCC (and the 1988 and later versions) would have the three-class system. The BMW, Alfa Romeo and Mercedes entries would qualify for Class 2, but all of the others above are class 3. Chrysler would probably best run with the Dodge Daytona Shelby, while GM and Ford would undoubtedly push the Sierras and Commodores, though I would expect Ford Mustang and Chevrolet Camaro / Pontiac Firebird entries. Class 1 would probably be dominated by the Toyota Corolla AE86 and Volkswagen Golf GTI.

1990 would see the arrival of Godzilla - the Nissan Skyline GT-R - and by now the Sierras and the big-inch cars would be easily outrunning the M3 and 190 Cosworth, though DTM-style engine work would probably be in the cards by this point and the 190 Evo II, complete with the massive rear wing, would be Mercedes' weapon of choice by then. The Alfa Romeo SZ would probably replace the 75 Turbo, though likely with the two-liter Twin Spark engine to be able to run in Class 2. The Daytona would probably be developed with the goal of serious horsepower as its chassis would be too poor for great handling.

This championship would be amazing for racing, particularly as the DTM evolutions of the M3 and 190 Cosworth got more serious and aimed to chase down the stupid-fast-in-a-straight-line Sierra Cosworth and the awesome Skyline GT-R. The Aussie giants would have rely on big-engine horsepower to keep up, and if Jaguar is still in it they'll have to run with the bigger V12 engines in their cars, facing the same issues the Australians would have. The Alfa SZ as a Group 2 car is a genuine threat too, as it is one of the finest handling cars of its generation. Japanese High Tech, Detroit (and Australian) cubic inches or European handling - who is your money on?

 

[Riain]

One problem with international races is the interpretation of the rules by the governing bodies. When the Aussies went to Europe they were staggered by how liberally the rules were interpreted and by how willing the drivers were to damage cars to win races. So much so that the 1987 Bathurst round of the WTCC was fought out in the courts and finally given to Brock who was 3 laps down at the finish.

Another problem is how to homologate cars. One reason why US muscle was so competitive was because cars like the Z28 Camaro and Boss 302 Mustang were loaded with a hell of a lot of awesome stuff on the showroom floor, you could buy them with cross-ram manifolds and twin 4 bbl carbs. Aussie cars would never be able to get all of this quality go-fast stuff onto a road car, there aren't enough people in Australia to create a market for it.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

TheMann

A variety of tracks with cars of various classes (depending on displacement) competing against each other would be more entertaining in the same way that Formula One prior to around the 1995 season allowed for various engines and different displacements (albeit limited), which either gave some teams an advantage or put them at a disadvantage depending on the circuit.

Larger cars would have the size and power advantage that would aid them on some tracks with their size and weight impairing handling and causing lots of tyre wear (along with higher fuel consumption hindering them in longer races) on other tracks, while for the smaller cars it would be the opposite.

Prior to adopting alternate Group A regulations, there would be 5 classes competing against each other: Class E) 750-1499cc, Class D) 1500-2099cc, Class C) 2100-2999cc, Class B) 3000-3799cc and Class A) 3800-5000cc with a minimum of 2500 cars required to be built in one year in order to be homologated.

I would also include races at Brazil and South Africa, since I envision the likes of South Africa’s Ford Capri Perana V8 and Brazil’s Ford Galaxie 500 / Maverick GT competing with America’s Ford Mustang / Torino, Australia’s Ford Falcon, Germany’s Ford Capri 2600RS (Cologne V6) and Britain’s Lotus Cortina / Ford Escort Twin-Cam / Ford Capri 3100RS (Essex V6) using cars from Ford’s regional branches that competed in motorsport.

Even in the 80s, it was not uncommon seeing smaller cars racing against larger cars in epic Group A David vs Goliath battles.

 

[TheMann]

^ That is true (and awesome) what you say about the idea of the five-class system for the 1960s / early 1970s, but you will still not see a Hillman Imp win a WTCC title or even a Mini doing so, because they will be in terms of power badly outclassed.

By that class system, the Fiat 500 Abarth, Hillman Imp, Mini Cooper, Fiat 128 and Honda 9 would be in Class E, the Ford Escort Twin Cam, Lotus Cortina, Alfa Romeo GTA 1600, Porsche 911, Datsun 510, Triumph Dolomite Sprint and BMW 2002 would be Class D, Class C would be home to the Ford Capri, Opel Commodore and BMW 2800 CS. I'm not seeing too many cars in your class B category aside from the BMW 3.0CSL and the three-liter version of the Ford Capri, and Class A will be dominated by the American and Australian muscle cars, as in that rule the best European competitors aren't allowed due to the five-liter engine size limit. (Perhaps an exception is given to the Mercedes 450SEL 6.9 and Jaguar XJ12 because of their size and weight?) The Ford Capri Perana would be up against the big boys from America and Australia.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

^ That is true (and awesome) what you say about the idea of the five-class system for the 1960s / early 1970s, but you will still not see a Hillman Imp win a WTCC title or even a Mini doing so, because they will be in terms of power badly outclassed.

By that class system, the Fiat 500 Abarth, Hillman Imp, Mini Cooper, Fiat 128 and Honda 9 would be in Class E, the Ford Escort Twin Cam, Lotus Cortina, Alfa Romeo GTA 1600, Porsche 911, Datsun 510, Triumph Dolomite Sprint and BMW 2002 would be Class D, Class C would be home to the Ford Capri, Opel Commodore and BMW 2800 CS. I'm not seeing too many cars in your class B category aside from the BMW 3.0CSL and the three-liter version of the Ford Capri, and Class A will be dominated by the American and Australian muscle cars, as in that rule the best European competitors aren't allowed due to the five-liter engine size limit. (Perhaps an exception is given to the Mercedes 450SEL 6.9 and Jaguar XJ12 because of their size and weight?) The Ford Capri Perana would be up against the big boys from America and Australia.

Was thinking of something like the 911 since that competed in the ETCC until I found out the 3.0 came much later, while the only other cars I can think of that would race in Class B would include the MGB GT V8 and Rover P6.

From looking up on the following links, I agree with you that the Classes A and B would be better off merging together into Class A with the max displacement limit being 7050cc and the lowest being 3000cc, while having the rest of the 3 Classes renamed (Class C into Class B - 2100-2999cc, Class D into Class C - 1500-2099cc and Class E into Class D - 750-1499cc).

Guess I was envisioning non-European cars (US, OZ, SA) with 3000-3799cc and another (European, Japanese, Brazilian etc) carmakers specifically creating homologated models to slot into "Class B".

http://www.touringcarracing.net/Pages/ETCC.html

http://www.touringcarracing.net/Pages/BSCC.html


While I do not expect either the Mini or Imp to win the WTCC title, that is unless they somehow pull off a "Keke Rosberg" by winning a least one or two races at tracks where smaller cars are in their element and gain points in other tracks where larger cars dominate, I do envision smaller cars being right in the mix and occasionally pulling off a few upsets.


Also, take into account that carmakers would explore almost any avenue in order to gain an advantage, so turbochargers for example might come into play early on(initially) in the lowest class to offset the advantage of the larger displacement cars.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

I think what you'd need is an earlier version of something like Supertouring, a one class formula with one engine capacity.

Or the points system like the early days of the BTCC, where only positions within each class counted, so the winner of each would get 50 championship points, next 40, but would be on the same table.

 

[TheMann]

Was thinking of something like the 911 since that competed in the ETCC until I found out the 3.0 came much later, while the only other cars I can think of that would race in Class B would include the MGB GT V8 and Rover P6.

Those are possibilities, but the more likely fact is that the competitors from Britain would all in the late 60s have Minis or Escort Twin Cams, though somebody driving a Rover P6 might make for an interesting addition to the grid.

From looking up on the following links, I agree with you that the Classes A and B would be better off merging together into Class A with the max displacement limit being 7050cc and the lowest being 3000cc, while having the rest of the 3 Classes renamed (Class C into Class B - 2100-2999cc, Class D into Class C - 1500-2099cc and Class E into Class D - 750-1499cc).

Guess I was envisioning non-European cars (US, OZ, SA) with 3000-3799cc and another (European, Japanese, Brazilian etc) carmakers specifically creating homologated models to slot into "Class B".

A possibility I would guess, but the American (and Canadian) and Australian competitors would probably want the cubic inches they are used to courtesy of cars like the Ford Mustang Boss 302, Chevrolet Camaro Z/28, Dodge Challenger R/T and the like. The Holden Torana of the late 60s was a six-banger but its displacement still fell into your Class A. What you have above would be very good, though I asked about a potential exception namely because I didn't want to see the monster-motor musclecars come into this. A 7050cc engine limit will surely see somebody trying to run a 426 Hemi in a Chrysler product or a Ford Galaxie with a 427 side-oiler big block. (The fact that that car would undoubtedly handle like a hippo on roller skates would be a good point, but I can still see somebody being crazy enough to try it.)

While I do not expect either the Mini or Imp to win the WTCC title, that is unless they somehow pull off a "Keke Rosberg" by winning a least one or two races at tracks where smaller cars are in their element and gain points in other tracks where larger cars dominate, I do envision smaller cars being right in the mix and occasionally pulling off a few upsets.

Also, take into account that carmakers would explore almost any avenue in order to gain an advantage, so turbochargers for example might come into play early on(initially) in the lowest class to offset the advantage of the larger displacement cars.

A possibility, but that requires either quite liberal engine rules or it requires manufacturer involvement, and turbocharging wasn't real popular in cars until well into the 1970s. The first car I can see that would run in this championship with a Turbo would be the BMW 2002, which spawned a turbo version in 1972. I don't think there is room in a Mini or an Imp for a turbo, knowing how crowded their engine bays are.

 

[TheMann]

Or the points system like the early days of the BTCC, where only positions within each class counted, so the winner of each would get 50 championship points, next 40, but would be on the same table.

I don't like that idea simply because of the possibility that one car could be overwhelmingly dominant in its class and win the title almost by default. Bill McGovern did just that in his Hillman Imp in the late 1960s BTCC, and that was repeated by Richard Longman and his Mini about a decade later. Better, I think, to have separate championships and judge the title based on overall finishing positions, using weight and tire rules to make the classes as closely competitive as possible.

 

[Masked Grizzly]

A 7050cc engine limit will surely see somebody trying to run a 426 Hemi in a Chrysler product or a Ford Galaxie with a 427 side-oiler big block. (The fact that that car would undoubtedly handle like a hippo on roller skates would be a good point, but I can still see somebody being crazy enough to try it.)

.....

A possibility, but that requires either quite liberal engine rules or it requires manufacturer involvement, and turbocharging wasn't real popular in cars until well into the 1970s. The first car I can see that would run in this championship with a Turbo would be the BMW 2002, which spawned a turbo version in 1972. I don't think there is room in a Mini or an Imp for a turbo, knowing how crowded their engine bays are.

That sort of displacement craziness is one of the things that would make this series entertaining and that is not even mentioning its effects / influence on performance cars in various countries compared to the OTL where such a series did not exist.

The 2002 Turbo was indeed the first and after that would probably be the Saab 99 Turbo (that could in theory have been produced much earlier) along with the Opel Manta A Turbo (and possibly a turbo version of the Opel GT due to sharing the same 1.9 engine).

Aftermarket Turbo Imps exist so its not entirely out of question, while the ERA Mini Turbo would suggest that a turbocharged A-Series would fit into the Mini albeit with some modification, still allowing for a limited production run of homologated models (detuned from racing spec) to be produced and sold to the public. Even in non-Turbo racing spec both the Mini and Imp producted crazy amounts of power.

 

[Custard Cream Monster]

The alternative way of looking it is looking at the engine capacities and determining what the Supertouring style formula engine capacity would be.

 

[TheMann]

The alternative way of looking it is looking at the engine capacities and determining what the Supertouring style formula engine capacity would be.

Supertouring rules didn't come into play until the 1990s. This is late 60 / early 70s were talking here. Aerodynamics were in their infancy at this time even in Formula One, and with the vast differences in the cars used in such racing at the time such a formula wouldn't make much sense.