Workability of Austrian Unified Germany

kernals12

Banned
550px-Map-AustroPrussianWar.svg (1).png

In the 1860s, it was a race between Prussia and Austria to unify Germany, a race which the Prussians wound up winning. And I think that the Austrians got lucky because of that, even if they didn't know at the time. It seems like this would further worsen ethnic tensions, and that the Germans who are now forced into a union with Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks etc. would long for Prussian rule.
 
View attachment 450005
In the 1860s, it was a race between Prussia and Austria to unify Germany, a race which the Prussians wound up winning. And I think that the Austrians got lucky because of that, even if they didn't know at the time. It seems like this would further worsen ethnic tensions, and that the Germans who are now forced into a union with Hungarians, Czechs, Slovaks etc. would long for Prussian rule.
wrong forum, this is pre-1900
 

BigBlueBox

Banned
The Austrians never integrated Hungary into the HRE, I don’t see any reason why they would integrate it into an Austrian-led Germany. If anything, they would likely leave a viceroy to rule Hungary and Croatia or even give it to a Habsburg relative, reducing tension between Transleithania and Cisleithania even more than the OTL Ausgleich. Same is true for Galicia-Lodomeria.
 
Is it achieve by agreement with Prussia or by defeating her in war?

If the former then as long as the King of Prussia goes along with the arrangement, it will work. If the latter, Austria will be "the only game intown" for German nationalists and they'll have to make the best of it. Perhaps you get a convention that if an Otokar or a Ferenc is a member of the German government or parliament, he calls himself Otto or Franz.
 
Decades of Darkness had this. Actually a triple-headed Germany, with a larger Netherlands that retained Belgium that federated with Prussia and Austria under a Hapsburg monarch. The Hapsburgs spun off Hungary and an enlarged Croatia as satellite kingdoms and basically only kept Slovenia and Czechia along with the German parts of Austria in Grossdeutschland.
 
Decades of Darkness had this. Actually a triple-headed Germany, with a larger Netherlands that retained Belgium that federated with Prussia and Austria under a Hapsburg monarch. The Hapsburgs spun off Hungary and an enlarged Croatia as satellite kingdoms and basically only kept Slovenia and Czechia along with the German parts of Austria in Grossdeutschland.

Whilst Galicia became part of a Habsburg Poland.
 
If Austria defeated Prussia in 1866 (which has been deemed to be entirely plausible on some threads here), would Austria unify Germany in the same manner as Prussia? Perhaps the Rhineland might be given to a Habsburg cadet branch, and Silesia might be annexed to Austria, but would anything have been done to the German Confederation?
 
I was thinking about a scenario where the Swiss Civil War spins out of control. Mainly due to a man made avalanche whipping out a chunk of the
Federal Army and its command structure. Leading to Metternich getting approval from the other Powers to get involved under the 1815 Vienna treaty, as he was thinking about.

This means that the Austrian Army is fighting among the Swiss mountains when the Italians, Czech, and Hungarians independence struggle turns hot during the summer of 1848. Which means that the Austrians are in trouble.

But during a more bloody Berlin riots, King Frederick William IV gets killed. And his brother and heir our otl Kaiser William I, is on the run with the remnants of the 1. Guarddivision. This mainly due to local Landswehr regiments objecting violently to Billy clearing the streets with grapeshot. Even OTL he had to hide out in London for a bit.

Enter 18 year old F-J as the new emperor a few months earlier. He decides to take a page out of his ancestors books and divides the Austrian Empire among his brothers and other relatives. Maximilian gets Hungary after some quick redrawing the borders along German demographic lines. Karl Ludwig gets Croatia including Dalmatia, at all of 12 years old. And at 6 years Ludwig Victor is bestowed with Czechoslovakia sans Royal Hungary and the German areas. And Lombardy Venice to his cousin Leopold II of Tuscany.

Thus leaving him free to go for a job interview in Frankfurt. Bringing to the table the German parts of the Austrian Empire and Swiss Confederacy, plus an Army 200.000 men strong that now won't be required in Hungary.
 
If Austria defeated Prussia in 1866 (which has been deemed to be entirely plausible on some threads here), would Austria unify Germany in the same manner as Prussia? Perhaps the Rhineland might be given to a Habsburg cadet branch, and Silesia might be annexed to Austria, but would anything have been done to the German Confederation?

That is exactly what they tried to do in 1863. Without Prussian opposition, they would have more success.

On July 31st 1863 The Emperor of Austria, in an autographed letter, invited all the sovereigns of the German Confederation, and the senates of the free cities to meet in assembly at Frankfurt-on-the-Main. In it he encouraged all to attend, to discuss the question of re-organizing the German Confederation suitable to the requirements of that ever changing age. Most of the governments accepted the invitation, and the sitting of the congress opened on August 17th at 11am. under the presidency of the Emperor. In his opening speech he spoke at great length of the proposed reform and the king of Bavaria replied. The following is a complete list of all who took part in the proceedings of the congress. On August 19th the King of Saxony left Frankfort for Baden, where the King of Prussia was staying, with a joint invitation from the assembled princes to the king to take part in the Congress, but the king (under influence from Bismark) continued to decline. The session of the Congress ended on September 1st. The Emperor of Austria at the closing sitting expressed his satisfaction at the complete fulfilment of his hopes of a direct cooperation on the part of the German sovereigns. He hoped that this first Congress of German Princes would be followed by a second, one that all the members would attend, and that all might be united in a strong body. As a result of this Congress, the Reform act was agreed by all but 6 states. (Baden, Luxemburg, Saxe-Weimar, Mecklenburg-Schwerin, Waldeck and Pymont and Reuss (younger line)). The Act bears the date of September 1st 1866 and is entitled "Reform of the German Bund as proposed by the Congress of Princes held at Frankfort".

It's provisions were as follows:

1. The objects of the German Confederation are declared to be the maintenance of the security and power of Germany in regard to foreign countries, the maintenance of public order at home and the furtherance of the interests of the German nation.
2. A Directory is established for the management of the affairs of the confederation, a Federal Council is organised from among the plenipotentiaries of the governments, an assessment of Federal delegates is to be convoked periodically and a Federal court of justice is established.
3. The Directory is to consist of 6 votes, namely: 1. Austria, 2. Prussia, 3. Bavaria, 4. Saxony, Hanover & Wurtemburg, 5. A member elected by Baden, the two Hesse's Holstein, Luxemburg, Brunswick, the two Mecklenburgs & Nassau, and 6. A member elected by all the other states. The Federal council of 17 members nominally (but 23 actually) as Austria and Prussia had three votes each.
4. The Assembly of Delegates is to consist of three hundred and two members - elected not by the people but by the representative bodies of several German States. Austria is to have 75 members, Prussia (if she pleases) the same. The four free cities are entitled to send two representatives (the original proposal was for one only). This assembly was to meet once in three years, in the month of May, and may not be prorogued by the Directory for any period not exceeding two months. Should the Assembly be dissolved, the Directory is empowered immediately to issue orders for a new election. The right to make representatives and complaints is granted to the Assembly and it may pass resolution on national affairs but legislative privileges are denied.
5. The Assembly of Princes takes into consideration the results of the deliberations of the Chamber of Deputies and examines in the representations and complaints of the Chamber of Delegates and orders the promulgation by the Directory and by the several states of the acts it has sanctioned.
6. No formal declaration of war can be made without the consent of two thirds of the Federal Council. Should there be danger of a war between a foreign power and a state which has possessions not belonging to the Confederation, the Directory is bound by the decision of the Federal Council whether or not the Confederation shall take part in the war.
http://www.diadumenian.com/Congressofprinces/Congress summary.html
 

raharris1973

Gone Fishin'
Donor
Monthly Donor
I was thinking about a scenario where the Swiss Civil War spins out of control. Mainly due to a man made avalanche whipping out a chunk of the
Federal Army and its command structure. Leading to Metternich getting approval from the other Powers to get involved under the 1815 Vienna treaty, as he was thinking about.

This means that the Austrian Army is fighting among the Swiss mountains when the Italians, Czech, and Hungarians independence struggle turns hot during the summer of 1848. Which means that the Austrians are in trouble.

But during a more bloody Berlin riots, King Frederick William IV gets killed. And his brother and heir our otl Kaiser William I, is on the run with the remnants of the 1. Guarddivision. This mainly due to local Landswehr regiments objecting violently to Billy clearing the streets with grapeshot. Even OTL he had to hide out in London for a bit.

Enter 18 year old F-J as the new emperor a few months earlier. He decides to take a page out of his ancestors books and divides the Austrian Empire among his brothers and other relatives. Maximilian gets Hungary after some quick redrawing the borders along German demographic lines. Karl Ludwig gets Croatia including Dalmatia, at all of 12 years old. And at 6 years Ludwig Victor is bestowed with Czechoslovakia sans Royal Hungary and the German areas. And Lombardy Venice to his cousin Leopold II of Tuscany.

Thus leaving him free to go for a job interview in Frankfurt. Bringing to the table the German parts of the Austrian Empire and Swiss Confederacy, plus an Army 200.000 men strong that now won't be required in Hungary.

I like this one - Franz-Joseph, Kaiser of Germany by the Grace of God and German people, 1849-1916
 
I was thinking about a scenario where the Swiss Civil War spins out of control. Mainly due to a man made avalanche whipping out a chunk of the
Federal Army and its command structure. Leading to Metternich getting approval from the other Powers to get involved under the 1815 Vienna treaty, as he was thinking about.

This means that the Austrian Army is fighting among the Swiss mountains when the Italians, Czech, and Hungarians independence struggle turns hot during the summer of 1848. Which means that the Austrians are in trouble.

But during a more bloody Berlin riots, King Frederick William IV gets killed. And his brother and heir our otl Kaiser William I, is on the run with the remnants of the 1. Guarddivision. This mainly due to local Landswehr regiments objecting violently to Billy clearing the streets with grapeshot. Even OTL he had to hide out in London for a bit.

Enter 18 year old F-J as the new emperor a few months earlier. He decides to take a page out of his ancestors books and divides the Austrian Empire among his brothers and other relatives. Maximilian gets Hungary after some quick redrawing the borders along German demographic lines. Karl Ludwig gets Croatia including Dalmatia, at all of 12 years old. And at 6 years Ludwig Victor is bestowed with Czechoslovakia sans Royal Hungary and the German areas. And Lombardy Venice to his cousin Leopold II of Tuscany.

Thus leaving him free to go for a job interview in Frankfurt. Bringing to the table the German parts of the Austrian Empire and Swiss Confederacy, plus an Army 200.000 men strong that now won't be required in Hungary.
Czechoslovakia would be Bohemia, right? Then FJ need to keep it for himself together with Austria (as Bohemia is full part of the sold Holy Roman Empire and likely still inside the German confederation)..
Hungary will surely go to Maximilian as it is the best choice possible and the rest can be divided between Karl Ludwig and Ludwig Victor or go to some other relatives (as Austria is still full of junior branches)
 
Maximilian gets Hungary after some quick redrawing the borders along German demographic lines. Karl Ludwig gets Croatia including Dalmatia, at all of 12 years old. And at 6 years Ludwig Victor is bestowed with Czechoslovakia sans Royal Hungary and the German areas.
Recipe for disaster. The Hungarians would not accept any division of the Holy Crown lands.
 
Recipe for disaster. The Hungarians would not accept any division of the Holy Crown lands.


Anyway, why would the question arise?

A sizeable chunk of Prussia (East Prussia, West Prussia and Posen) also lay outside the Confederation, but no one demanded that these provinces be hived off and given to another Hohenzollern.
 
Anyway, why would the question arise?

A sizeable chunk of Prussia (East Prussia, West Prussia and Posen) also lay outside the Confederation, but no one demanded that these provinces be hived off and given to another Hohenzollern.
Because they would not want millions of non-Germans in Germany. Unlike East Prussia, Hungary was non-German (for the most part), and has been a state for close to a thousand years. Besides, it was always governed separately, under their own crown.
 
The Austrians never integrated Hungary into the HRE, I don’t see any reason why they would integrate it into an Austrian-led Germany. If anything, they would likely leave a viceroy to rule Hungary and Croatia or even give it to a Habsburg relative, reducing tension between Transleithania and Cisleithania even more than the OTL Ausgleich. Same is true for Galicia-Lodomeria.

IIRC Britain actually advocated at some point (IRC when, though), that if FJ took the German title, to halve the Habsburg inheritance and give Hungary to Max. Needless to say, Vienna didn't appreciate the British meddling in what they viewed as their backyard.
 
Top