Wl: The UK gets pulled into the Russo-Japanese war

[Chimera0205]

Say the Doggers Bank Incident ends with a dozen or so additional British casualtys and the Brits decide to go war over it and join in on Japans side. Obviously Russia gets ass raped but how badly and what affects does that have on ww1 and beyond?

 

[kernals12]

Say the Doggers Bank Incident ends with a dozen or so additional British casualtys and the Brits decide to go war over it and join in on Japans side. Obviously Russia gets ass raped but how badly and what affects does that have on ww1 and beyond?

You've just started WW1 early. France is obligated by treaty to go to war with Britain and one assumes the rest of Europe plus the United States would find a way to get involved.

 

[diestormlie]

Well, a few things:

The British might realise the terrible state of their Naval Gunnery and institute some reforms to actually mandate gunnery training, because IIRC the issue was that Executive Officers were promoted partially on the presentation of the ship. This meant that they didn't want to do Gunnery Training because it made everything messy and dirty. These XOs were promoted to Captains who looked upon their XOs favourably when they, additionally, didn't want to do Gunnery Training. (Remember, the RN has basically been a Peacetime Navy for decades at this point.)

It might lead to closer UK-Japanese ties, which might lead to greater Japanese involvement in the WWI. The Western Front is an Ocean to far, but I could see, maybe, Japanese ground troops in the Middle East. What that taste of Desert warfare does to the Japanese Militarist fuckwits... Vigourous Shrugging. What it does to the War at large... Also shrugging.

Now, what it does to UK-Russian relations... More interesting. The Entente may still form along the same lines, mostly because Germany Scary, Yo! And, that's still the case in 1904-1905. Come to think of it, with the prospect of a 'Short, victorious war' horribly out the window, and the prospect of 'Long, Victorious war' also out of the question, Russia will probably appeal right quick to, say, France for international arbitration right quick.

 

[Chimera0205]

Well, a few things:

The British might realise the terrible state of their Naval Gunnery and institute some reforms to actually mandate gunnery training, because IIRC the issue was that Executive Officers were promoted partially on the presentation of the ship. This meant that they didn't want to do Gunnery Training because it made everything messy and dirty. These XOs were promoted to Captains who looked upon their XOs favourably when they, additionally, didn't want to do Gunnery Training. (Remember, the RN has basically been a Peacetime Navy for decades at this point.)

It might lead to closer UK-Japanese ties, which might lead to greater Japanese involvement in the WWI. The Western Front is an Ocean to far, but I could see, maybe, Japanese ground troops in the Middle East. What that taste of Desert warfare does to the Japanese Militarist fuckwits... Vigourous Shrugging. What it does to the War at large... Also shrugging.

Now, what it does to UK-Russian relations... More interesting. The Entente may still form along the same lines, mostly because Germany Scary, Yo! And, that's still the case in 1904-1905. Come to think of it, with the prospect of a 'Short, victorious war' horribly out the window, and the prospect of 'Long, Victorious war' also out of the question, Russia will probably appeal right quick to, say, France for international arbitration right quick.

why would they need to fix gunnery training. the russian navy will probably be wiped out at tsushima as OTL so i dont really see them risking what they have left to go fight england on the seas. actually tsushima might somehow be even worse if the british pacific fleet joins in. we might actually see the first and only time a modern fleet was litterly annihalated. as in every single russian ship in the reinforcement fleet at the bottom of the ocean witch almost happened OTL with only like a dozen russian ships escaping. maybe japan gets even more out of the peace deal... somehow? what would britian get out of the peace deal?

 

[diestormlie]

why would they need to fix gunnery training. the russian navy will probably be wiped out at tsushima as OTL so i dont really see them risking what they have left to go fight england on the seas. actually tsushima might somehow be even worse if the british pacific fleet joins in. we might actually see the first and only time a modern fleet was litterly annihalated. as in every single russian ship in the reinforcement fleet at the bottom of the ocean witch almost happened OTL with only like a dozen russian ships escaping. maybe japan gets even more out of the peace deal... somehow? what would britian get out of the peace deal?

The POD refers to the Dogger Bank incident, which took place in the North Sea. If that kicks off the War, the Russian Baltic Fleet- Sorry, the Second Pacific Squadron ends up against the Home Fleet.

 

[Chimera0205]

The POD refers to the Dogger Bank incident, which took place in the North Sea. If that kicks off the War, the Russian Baltic Fleet- Sorry, the Second Pacific Squadron ends up against the Home Fleet.

not necessarily. thered likely be a build of public outrage then a declaration of war. i not saying they immediately scramble the fleet. naval incidents rarely lead to immediate war. even the maine explosion took a couple weeks before war was declared. For this particular thing lets say it takes a week for war to be declared.

 

[Driftless]

why would they need to fix gunnery training. the russian navy will probably be wiped out at tsushima as OTL so i dont really see them risking what they have left to go fight england on the seas. actually tsushima might somehow be even worse if the british pacific fleet joins in. we might actually see the first and only time a modern fleet was litterly annihalated. as in every single russian ship in the reinforcement fleet at the bottom of the ocean witch almost happened OTL with only like a dozen russian ships escaping. maybe japan gets even more out of the peace deal... somehow? what would britian get out of the peace deal?

There was already some work in progress as of 1900 in both Britain and the US to improve gunnery * Continuous Aim Fire * The accuracy of US naval gunfire at Santiago in 1898 - even at the comparatively very short range was terrible. However, the changes took time for the top brass to accept and implement and for crews to practice

n November 1900, Lieutenant William Sims joined the wardroom of the Kentucky , the U.S. Navy’s newest battleship. He had just come from a tour as an attaché at the American Embassy in Paris, where he had been studying and collecting intelligence on European battleship design and gunnery practices. As theKentucky sailed to China Station, Sims got his sea legs back after three years on shore duty. He also studied his new ship and started comparing what he had observed in Europe with what he found back at sea with his shipmates. That led him to conclude that despite new ships and newfound importance, the U.S. Navy still had a lot of room for improvement.

While visiting Hong Kong, Sims had a chance encounter with a Royal Navy captain who opened his eyes to a way he could help improve American naval standing. Percy Scott was the commander of the protected cruiser HMS Terrible , and what the lieutenant discovered was the British captain’s new gunnery technique of continuous-aim fire. It was a revolutionary change to naval gunnery that virtually nobody in the Royal Navy was taking seriously. Sims saw it for what it was: a chance to change naval warfare forever.

On board his previous ship, the cruiser Scylla , and again in the Terrible , Scott regeared the elevation mechanisms on his big guns and added telescopic sights. The latter allowed gun directors to see the enemy at the extreme ranges naval guns were achieving at the turn of the century. Maximizing the gearing allowed the directors to constantly adjust the barrels of the guns as the ship moved. This allowed them to keep the guns continuously aimed at the enemy, rather than waiting for the rolling of the ship to put the enemy in the crosshairs. Gun crews could not only shoot more accurately but also fire as quickly as they could reload the giant guns.

 

[Chimera0205]

Well, a few things:

The British might realise the terrible state of their Naval Gunnery and institute some reforms to actually mandate gunnery training, because IIRC the issue was that Executive Officers were promoted partially on the presentation of the ship. This meant that they didn't want to do Gunnery Training because it made everything messy and dirty. These XOs were promoted to Captains who looked upon their XOs favourably when they, additionally, didn't want to do Gunnery Training. (Remember, the RN has basically been a Peacetime Navy for decades at this point.)

It might lead to closer UK-Japanese ties, which might lead to greater Japanese involvement in the WWI. The Western Front is an Ocean to far, but I could see, maybe, Japanese ground troops in the Middle East. What that taste of Desert warfare does to the Japanese Militarist fuckwits... Vigourous Shrugging. What it does to the War at large... Also shrugging.

Now, what it does to UK-Russian relations... More interesting. The Entente may still form along the same lines, mostly because Germany Scary, Yo! And, that's still the case in 1904-1905. Come to think of it, with the prospect of a 'Short, victorious war' horribly out the window, and the prospect of 'Long, Victorious war' also out of the question, Russia will probably appeal right quick to, say, France for international arbitration right quick.

could more japanese involvement lead to them getting a bigger part in the peace deal and help tone down the nationalism that built up after they got shafted otl? also would closer ties with britain lead them not to ally with germany and maybe lead germany to seek alliance with china like they kinda sorta did otl before switching to japan? imagine a pacific front with a axis china and an allied Japan.

 

[Driftless]

could more japanese involvement lead to them getting a bigger part in the peace deal and help tone down the nationalism that built up after they got shafted otl? also would closer ties with britain lead them not to ally with germany and maybe lead germany to seek alliance with china like they kinda sorta did otl before switching to japan? imagine a pacific front with a axis china and an allied Japan.

That would make a great timeline. I know variants have been done on the Dogger Bank Incident and more cooperation between the Germans and China, but has anything been done with this complete overhaul of alliances?

 

[Alex1guy]

I've always wanted to see a TL on this subject, they pop up from time to time but dont seem to get very far which is a shame.

 

[Alanith]

not necessarily. thered likely be a build of public outrage then a declaration of war. i not saying they immediately scramble the fleet. naval incidents rarely lead to immediate war. even the maine explosion took a couple weeks before war was declared. For this particular thing lets say it takes a week for war to be declared.

Fortunately, the Channel Fleet has the Second Pacific Squadron handily shadowed, so if and when war is declared it'll last all of 45 minutes.

 

[Chimera0205]

Fortunately, the Channel Fleet has the Second Pacific Squadron handily shadowed, so if and when war is declared it'll last all of 45 minutes.

true enough. is ther any land fighting between britain and russia. maybe britain sends some troops to aide japan or maybe with the entire russian navy at the bottom they try a naval invasion

 

[Kaze]

Germany and France makes pop-corn and laughs... well, until Russia tries to pull France into the war.
Once France is in...
Then Germany says, "Flip a coin - heads, we go to Paris again. Tails, we eat the pop-corn in Moscow."


Then the US steps in and wants to play policeman and stop the nonsense.

 

[Cryhavoc101]

Is the Franco-Russian treaty void if it can be said that the Russians started it?

Just re-read the whole incident - no wonder the IJN cleaned up!

Perhaps have the Russian ships not just damage the Aurora and Dmitrii Donskoi but actually sink them (otl both were shot at by the Russian main gun line) now under the missaprehension than the British have attacked them and when they approch the Channel and is shadowed by the British Crusier Squadron the Russian fleet even more jumpy than OTL open fire.....

Needless to say the Russian fleet is sunk but is done so by the British!

 

[Catsmate]

Then the US steps in and wants to play policeman and stop the nonsense.

And is laughed at.

 

[James Ricker]

You've just started WW1 early. France is obligated by treaty to go to war with Britain and one assumes the rest of Europe plus the United States would find a way to get involved.

Germany sides with the British Empire, France and Russia are SCREWED.

 

[Catsmate]

OK. Here are my thoughts.
1. A few more casualties at Dogger probably isn't enough for a proper war. You'd need something more (like a RN ship sunk) and perhaps some reciprocal action against Russia. In another thread he a smallish British warship in the area was suggested as a PoD. This might generate more Russian casualties than OTL[1].
2. Maybe the outraged British public Do Something Stupid. There was the booing of the Count Benckendorff (the Russian Ambassador) in OTL as he walked from the Russian embassy (Chesham House in Belgravia) to answer the Foreign Office's summons, maybe with a dozen or more dead fishermen the incident is worse and he's killed by a thrown rock?
3. Might the Russians blame the Japanese; obviously the attack was carried out by their torpedo boats operating from Britain, with British connivance[2].
4. There are a lot of Russian émigré's in London at the time with no love for their homeland's government; they might try something. OK, they're probably too incompetent to achieve much except kill a few people.
5. Then there's the media. When it comes to yellow journalism and war-mongering in the period one name comes immediately to mind, that vile excrescence on journalism and politics, Horatio Bottomley. Now in late 1904 OTL Bottomly didn't own any newspapers nor was he in Parliament. But maybe he was, ITTL, elected to the Commons in 1900 (or even in 1890[3]). It nearly happened[4], Bottomley lost to Thomas Robertson by 338 votes. With him in parliament, and I could see patriotic ire being whipped up, at least if Bottomley thought there was something in it for him (money, influence, power).
6. If Britain gets involved to the extent of actually declaring war on Russia (rather than just massacring Rozhestvensky's fleet and calling it quits) then France has a problem; it's obliged to declare war against Britain and Japan under the terms of the secret treaty with Russia. France doesn't want to do this. They really don't want to do this but if they don't then their diplomatic influence will be wiped out for decades.
7. If the war does escalate then the UK will rapidly notice the failing of it's military. This will have significant long term consequences.
8. The historical alliances systems will not happen, there will be no Triple Entente for decades at least. Germany will probably try to improve relations with Britain, but a formal alliance is relatively unlikely.
9. Will Russia survive? While OTL the Tsar scraped by with some concessions to the 1905 revolutionaries that he soon ignored or repudiated, a longer and bloodier war might cause the whole house of cards to collapse. Especially with some external meddling (like a better managed Grafton Affair).


[1] Where the Russians only managed to kill a couple of their own sailors.

[2] There were Japanese torpedo boats and crews in the UK, being built at Yarrow and with crews training there.

[3] As happened in my EDC.

[4] An argument against popular suffrage if ever there was one.

 

[TimTurner]

OK. Here are my thoughts.
1. A few more casualties at Dogger probably isn't enough for a proper war. You'd need something more (like a RN ship sunk) and perhaps some reciprocal action against Russia. In another thread he a smallish British warship in the area was suggested as a PoD. This might generate more Russian casualties than OTL[1].
2. Maybe the outraged British public Do Something Stupid. There was the booing of the Count Benckendorff (the Russian Ambassador) in OTL as he walked from the Russian embassy (Chesham House in Belgravia) to answer the Foreign Office's summons, maybe with a dozen or more dead fishermen the incident is worse and he's killed by a thrown rock?
3. Might the Russians blame the Japanese; obviously the attack was carried out by their torpedo boats operating from Britain, with British connivance[2].
4. There are a lot of Russian émigré's in London at the time with no love for their homeland's government; they might try something. OK, they're probably too incompetent to achieve much except kill a few people.
5. Then there's the media. When it comes to yellow journalism and war-mongering in the period one name comes immediately to mind, that vile excrescence on journalism and politics, Horatio Bottomley. Now in late 1904 OTL Bottomly didn't own any newspapers nor was he in Parliament. But maybe he was, ITTL, elected to the Commons in 1900 (or even in 1890[3]). It nearly happened[4], Bottomley lost to Thomas Robertson by 338 votes. With him in parliament, and I could see patriotic ire being whipped up, at least if Bottomley thought there was something in it for him (money, influence, power).
6. If Britain gets involved to the extent of actually declaring war on Russia (rather than just massacring Rozhestvensky's fleet and calling it quits) then France has a problem; it's obliged to declare war against Britain and Japan under the terms of the secret treaty with Russia. France doesn't want to do this. They really don't want to do this but if they don't then their diplomatic influence will be wiped out for decades.
7. If the war does escalate then the UK will rapidly notice the failing of it's military. This will have significant long term consequences.
8. The historical alliances systems will not happen, there will be no Triple Entente for decades at least. Germany will probably try to improve relations with Britain, but a formal alliance is relatively unlikely.
9. Will Russia survive? While OTL the Tsar scraped by with some concessions to the 1905 revolutionaries that he soon ignored or repudiated, a longer and bloodier war might cause the whole house of cards to collapse. Especially with some external meddling (like a better managed Grafton Affair).


[1] Where the Russians only managed to kill a couple of their own sailors.

[2] There were Japanese torpedo boats and crews in the UK, being built at Yarrow and with crews training there.

[3] As happened in my EDC.

[4] An argument against popular suffrage if ever there was one.

Would anyone be willing to co-write a TL with me, this being the overall premise?

 

[Tibi088]

2 points about German position:
1.Here some assumes that Germany would join Brittain in fighting Russia and France. Thats lunacy. Thats a ground war against two neighbouring powers allied with only Brittain and A-H and other german allies not obliged to join because Germans jumped in. Also what would be the reason for Germany to join? Any casus belly?
2. If you have read a bit of german diplomacy of the time you should be aware that Germany was woking during the russo-japanese war to create a continental bloc against Brittain: see Björkö treaty with Russia. The plan was that France would be forced to join a russo-german alliance as it simply couldnt afford to stay out. Am alliance like that would be necesserily aimed at London. And beside that there was a warscare in germany in the winter of 1904-05 - they were fearing a british attack on them.

So if Germany would do anything beside the aforementioned popcorn eating it would be joining France and Russia - not the other way around.

 

[Catsmate]

Would anyone be willing to co-write a TL with me, this being the overall premise?

I#ll help as I can but I don't have the free time. Sorry.