Without the World Wars, would Europe's 1914 borders have remained to the present-day?

The Avenger

Banned
Transylvania, for example, still has a somewhat distinct regional identity from the non-Habsburg parts of Poland.
You mean Romania. After all, a Polish Transylvania is a subject of alternate history.

Also, I agree with all of the other things that you said here.
 
You mean Romania. After all, a Polish Transylvania is a subject of alternate history.

Also, I agree with all of the other things that you said here.
Yeah, I meant to say that the same Habsburg-ruled/non-Habsburg ruled split is also present in Poland. Some measures of civic participation and public trust in local courts and government is still higher in the ex-Austrian parts of Poland. I've only seen research on Poland's post-imperial legacies, but I'd guess that Transylvania shows similar effects with respect to the different imperial legacies of Wallachia, Moldavia.
 
There is a major difference between a collation between republicans and the Mensheviks triumphing and setting up a constitutional republic vs. a one party state controlled by the Mensheviks. In the former, they would be contained, but in the latter they wouldn't.

Didn't Mensheviks want democratic Russia either as monarchy where tsar hasn't any real power or as republic?
 
No.

Austria-Hungary was approaching two highly disruptive crises: the death of Franz Josef and the expiration of the Ausgleich. For quite a few years parliamentary government in Austria had been in abeyance, due to the monumental incompetence of Austrian politicians; the government functioned under emergency rule by decree, which worked only because of the prestige of FJ. While that prblem had receded by 1914, things were still very bad.

Russia was also unstable, with restive ethnic groups on the border, a shaky economy, and widespread discontent with the monarchy, then in the incompetent hands of Nicholas II.

Neither regime was likely to survive very long, much less a century, and their breakdowns would result in major territorial changes.

There were also territorial grievances regarding Imperial Germany: Schleswig, Alsace-Lorraine, and various bits of Poland. While Germany was very stable then, a century is a long time.

Here's another thought. Even if no wars convulsed Europe, Gandhi was already developing his ideas about mass civil disobedience. Such tactics could put immense pressure on even a semi-authoritarian monarchy to accept territorial changes.
 
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As well as that, the imperial powers probably would have been able to go ahead with their plans of partitioning the old “decadent” empires when they fell- ie Ottoman, Qing, maybe even add Russia to the list. But first you’d have to address how exactly they fixed the European states system after it fell out of balance from what was intended at the congress of Vienna
 
Without the World Wars, would Europe's 1914 borders have remained to the present-day?

Or would there have been an opportunity to change some of these borders?

No WW1 means no changes as between the Great Powers, as they would never surrender any of their territory without one.

There could still be some changes in the Balkans, if the Powers can agree and impose them.
 
No.

Austria-Hungary was approaching two highly disruptive crises: the death of Franz Josef and the expiration of the Ausgleich. For quite a few years parliamentary government in Austria had been in abeyance, due to the monumental incompetence of Austrian politicians; the government functioned under emergency rule by decree, which worked only because of the prestige of FJ. While that prblem had receded by 1914, things were still very bad.

Hungary will definitely cause problems soon after Franz Ferdinand has ascended to imperial throne but it not be anything unsolveable. And Austria just not be allowing Hungary leave the empire easily. And other nations might be more calm when them have given more autonomy.

Russia was also unstable, with restive ethnic groups on the border, a shaky economy, and widespread discontent with the monarchy, then in the incompetent hands of Nicholas II.

Russia had monumental problems but full-blown radical revolution would be very difficult when army would crush these. More probable is several riots and strikes and more pressure towards reforms. If there is some revolution it would be quiet peaceful event. And Poland and Finland or some another area not be allowed to secede. It would be very difficult throw Russia to total chaos without very severe crisis like massive major war.

Neither regime was likely to survive very long, much less a century, and their breakdowns would result in major territorial changes.

It will be extremely hard yes, but not impossible. And it would be difficult make big changes without some major war. Both countries should face total civil war.

There were also territorial grievances regarding Imperial Germany: Schleswig, Alsace-Lorraine, and various bits of Poland. While Germany was very stable then, a century is a long time.

German neighbors can't do any shit alone and even they know that. Danish army is just joke and France can't get EL back without help of Brits meaning that there would be WW1. And German army would crush any internal rebel if needed.

Here's another thought. Even if no wars convulsed Europe, Gandhi was already developing his ideas about mass civil disobedience. Such tactics could put immense pressure on even a semi-authoritarian monarchy to accept territorial changes.

Gandhi might has some influence to in methods work against imperial regimes but it probably would just change domestic politics and give some more rights but I can't see this changing borders. India is very different case compared to Finland, Poland, German minorities, Hungary, Bohemia, and Croatia.
 

The Avenger

Banned
No WW1 means no changes as between the Great Powers, as they would never surrender any of their territory without one.

There could still be some changes in the Balkans, if the Powers can agree and impose them.
Couldn't a revolution in A-H result in border changes there without a war, though?
 

The Avenger

Banned
They'd have to be very trivial ones. Anything likely to upset the balance of power would itself cause a war.
Very possibly, though there is the possibility of a multinational conference preventing the outbreak of war and solving these disputes peacefully if cooler heads will prevail.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
I don't think it's likely. Even without massive continent-spanning wars across Europe, there's still likely going to be smaller wars involving fewer countries. Couple that with ethnic nationalism and regional separatism, and I bet that some borders will probably be redrawn, and a few new countries will still emerge.

I wonder, without the World Wars, how much longer will the German, Austrian, Ottoman, and Russian empires survive? They had a lot of internal trouble (especially the latter two), and some ethnic groups will still probably want to rebel and try to secede. Will they be able to hold off revolutions / civil wars indefinitely?

They will survive indefinitely. It will take an event to break them up. Now they may be bigger or smaller, but they will most likely survive.
 
Hmm... My answer is that they probably would stay pretty similar to 1914.

Just a few bits:
Alsace Lorraine: This wont change without a world war as france alone cant wrestle it from Germany.
Austria-Hungary: the most likely to change but before the world war it was pretty stable in the sense that nearly all of its nationalities had the goal to reform it and not to secede. Italy or the Balkan states alone cant beat it and a russian intervention means world war so its against OP. I think it has an even chance of reforming to a degree it can survive - no outside border change this case - and falling apart completly.
Poland: As long as Germany and Russia don want it to exist.
Russia: I dont think a revolution can win without a world war.
Balkans: further wars - like Kosovo can happen. But its not unavoidable.
Ireland: might home rule solve this? I think other here are much more qualified to answer this question than me.

So its a pretty good chance that it will stay the same.
 

The Avenger

Banned
Hmm... My answer is that they probably would stay pretty similar to 1914.

Just a few bits:
Alsace Lorraine: This wont change without a world war as france alone cant wrestle it from Germany.

Yep.

Austria-Hungary: the most likely to change but before the world war it was pretty stable in the sense that nearly all of its nationalities had the goal to reform it and not to secede. Italy or the Balkan states alone cant beat it and a russian intervention means world war so its against OP. I think it has an even chance of reforming to a degree it can survive - no outside border change this case - and falling apart completly.

If A-H falls apart completely, and if cooler heads prevail, might an international conference create a new map in this region w/o a World War?

Poland: As long as Germany and Russia don want it to exist.
Russia: I dont think a revolution can win without a world war.

Portugal and China experienced revolutions w/o a World War.

Balkans: further wars - like Kosovo can happen. But its not unavoidable.

Ireland: might home rule solve this? I think other here are much more qualified to answer this question than me.

I wonder what the long-run outcome for Ireland is if Protestants fight against the British while Catholics fight for the British (due to the British support for Home Rule in Ireland).
 
Even if you butterfly World War I away, the Austrian, Ottoman and Russian empires had become far too unstable to survive for much longer than they did in OTL; the German one however, I can see it endure, and Home Rule could've easily butterflied away Irish independence, too. Colonialism would've lasted for much longer as well.
 
If A-H falls apart completely, and if cooler heads prevail, might an international conference create a new map in this region w/o a World War?

If A-H falls apart completly cooler heads have already lost and its the hotheads running the show. It will ugly and blody and a conference might follow especially if Russia and Germany cant agree on how to divide the remains. If they can agree one of the first points will be to shut out the intervention of the others.

Portugal and China experienced revolutions w/o a World War.
I wonder what the long-run outcome for Ireland is if Protestants fight against the British while Catholics fight for the British (due to the British support for Home Rule in Ireland).

I dont said no revolution just that it wont succeed. Russia was already developing toward a parliementary monarchy. If they reach far enough on that path revolution wont be an issue anymore. Till than the army and the mostly conservative tsarist countriside willl be enough to keep it together. In Russia the liberal isles of modern civilization are a minority and not enough to beat the regime.
 
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