Without the World Wars, would Europe's 1914 borders have remained to the present-day?

The Avenger

Banned
Without the World Wars, would Europe's 1914 borders have remained to the present-day?

Or would there have been an opportunity to change some of these borders?
 

Anderman

Donor
Unlikely the polish people still want there own state, the brits had a problem on the smaller island and lets better not talk about all probems of the Austria-Haungary and Russia...
 

The Avenger

Banned
Unlikely the polish people still want there own state, the brits had a problem on the smaller island and lets better not talk about all probems of the Austria-Haungary and Russia...
If Russia still eventually descends into revolution, the Poles can break free at that point in time. Their border would probably be that of Congress Poland since Russia and Germany won't approve of any Polish expansion beyond that.

Wouldn't most Irish Catholics support the union with Great Britain if Irish Home Rule is passed in 1914?

As for A-H and Russia, Russia could lose Congress Poland and perhaps Finland, but I don't see it giving anything else up without a fight. As for A-H, a lot might depend on whether or not it is able to successfully reform.
 
If Russia still eventually descends into revolution, the Poles can break free at that point in time. Their border would probably be that of Congress Poland since Russia and Germany won't approve of any Polish expansion beyond that.

If Russia falls into revolution, their opinion won't matter too much, especially if it's a long-term, multi-sided civil war.

And Germany won't like it, but Poland expanding further east would likely be met with German encouragement for the Poles in their territory to leave. In order to "resettle" and "fortify" Poland from further Russian aggression. Basically, subvert Polish nationalism as much as possible and co-opt it for your purposes to reduce Russian power.
 

The Avenger

Banned
If Russia falls into revolution, their opinion won't matter too much, especially if it's a long-term, multi-sided civil war.

A civil war in Russia is probably unlikely without a World War. WWI radicalized a lot of Russians and without that the moderates in Russia might prevail.

The Bolsheviks probably won't launch a coup unless they are reasonably sure of their odds of success.

And Germany won't like it, but Poland expanding further east would likely be met with German encouragement for the Poles in their territory to leave.

I doubt that many German Poles would accept this proposal, though. AFAIK, they wanted to stay in Germany and for the discrimination against them to end.

In order to "resettle" and "fortify" Poland from further Russian aggression.

Good luck getting German Poles to give up their higher quality of life in Germany in order to settle in some eastern backwaters.

Plus, even if Russia does experience a civil war, as soon as it gets back on its feet, it's going to push Poland back to the Curzon Line.

Basically, subvert Polish nationalism as much as possible and co-opt it for your purposes to reduce Russian power.

That would be the logical thing to do, Yes. Unfortunately, Germans might have been even more afraid of Polish nationalism than they were of Russia.
 
I think that there would have been some changes but there wouldn't have been a massive change in European borders.
 
Changes here and there such as?
Relatively minor changes like a border skirmish or two across Europe, but nothing as massive as a province or state. I refer to the Balkans for the possibility for a skirmish in which there could have been a border skirmish to get a few towns between countries. (I meant to put could on the previous post.)
 

The Avenger

Banned
Relatively minor changes like a border skirmish or two across Europe, but nothing as massive as a province or state. I refer to the Balkans for the possibility for a skirmish in which there could have been a border skirmish to get a few towns between countries. (I meant to put could on the previous post.)
OK.
 
I don't think it's likely. Even without massive continent-spanning wars across Europe, there's still likely going to be smaller wars involving fewer countries. Couple that with ethnic nationalism and regional separatism, and I bet that some borders will probably be redrawn, and a few new countries will still emerge.

I wonder, without the World Wars, how much longer will the German, Austrian, Ottoman, and Russian empires survive? They had a lot of internal trouble (especially the latter two), and some ethnic groups will still probably want to rebel and try to secede. Will they be able to hold off revolutions / civil wars indefinitely?
 
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There would be some border changes but not radical. German borders would be mostly same. Austria-Hungary has big problems but it can survive if it reforms correctly. Russian Empire might face several problems but hardly even there is much changes and surely not independent Poland and Finland. It would need total collapse of the empire and civil war which not happen without WW1.
 
Given Nicholas II's incompetence, though, that's certainly not out of the question!

Some revolution there might be but not so massive and chaotic. Without WW1 situation would be much better. Russian economy was even actually rising becore the war. But it would depends how Russia handle next major crisis or war with someone neighbor.
 

The Avenger

Banned
Some revolution there might be but not so massive and chaotic. Without WW1 situation would be much better. Russian economy was even actually rising becore the war. But it would depends how Russia handle next major crisis or war with someone neighbor.
Yeah, what might happen is a revolution but with the moderate socialists ultimately triumphing.
 
Yeah, what might happen is a revolution but with the moderate socialists ultimately triumphing.
There is a major difference between a collation between republicans and the Mensheviks triumphing and setting up a constitutional republic vs. a one party state controlled by the Mensheviks. In the former, they would be contained, but in the latter they wouldn't.
 

The Avenger

Banned
There is a major difference between a collation between republicans and the Mensheviks triumphing and setting up a constitutional republic vs. a one party state controlled by the Mensheviks. In the former, they would be contained, but in the latter they wouldn't.
I don't know if the Mensheviks actually wanted absolute power, though.
 
Europe could make more Azerbaijan situations work with the right language policies and enough time. By Azerbaijan, I mean a situation where there is an independent Azerbaijan, but ethnic Azerbaijanis across the border in Iran are satisfied with boundaries as they are.
The right combination of decentralization and language accommodations could lead to something similar to Europe's 3 tiered identities today. Its possible for an individual to have a concentric regional, national, and European identity. In modern Germany or Italy its possible to be a proud Bavarian or Sardinian, Italian or German patriots, and be a Europhile at the continental level.

The interwar Czechoslovak language law (schools, local government in your language if it's at least 20% of a local area) and some form of free-market arrangement that requires cooperation are important. Transylvania, for example, still has a somewhat distinct regional identity from the non-Habsburg parts of Poland. There's been mistrust in the past with the Hungarian minority, but separatist sentiment is only common among the over 60 crowd. Younger Hungarians grow up with their language in school, but most want to learn Romanian for economic and educational opportunities in other parts of the country.
 
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