Without Napoleon, how could the Holy Roman Empire fall?

It might develop in a somewhat similar way as OTL. In OTL, you saw the development of a German Confederation. In this ATL, the Holy Roman Empire survives. Then there is a war between two or probably more parts which results in Austria being squeezed out. The Holy Roman Empire then turns into the German Empire, a small-German solution like in OTL. Alternatively Bavaria and Swabia joins Austria and the rest forms a North German Empire.

Of course, the question is whether nationalism develops as a factor to the same extent. This partly depends on where you put the POD. Assuming the French Revolution still happens (that is a POD around 1800), I assume that nationalism will develop similarly. If it does not happen, it might become a weaker factor, but I assume that it is somewhat linked to industrialization, so it will still be a factor.
 
Fair enough, but 1803 could go very differently w/o Napoleon - or indeed the whole secularisation thing might be put off a few years. And as already noted it might be more of an Austro-Prussian deal, with the lesser states getting less of the swag.
And how. Baden did well for itself, partially as its leader was related to almost major monarch in Europe. Ended up quadrupling his territory.
 
It might develop in a somewhat similar way as OTL. In OTL, you saw the development of a German Confederation. In this ATL, the Holy Roman Empire survives. Then there is a war between two or probably more parts which results in Austria being squeezed out.


Why would Austria necessarily lose?

During ther Napoleonic Wars, the Austrian Army did as well as the Prussian, and Bismarck (b1815) could well be butterflied away. Nor does Moltke necessarily have the same career as OTL.
 
Why would Austria necessarily lose?

During ther Napoleonic Wars, the Austrian Army did as well as the Prussian, and Bismarck (b1815) could well be butterflied away. Nor does Moltke necessarily have the same career as OTL.

Sure, it is possible, with such an early POD. As far as I recall it was only in the 1850s that Prussia got a definite lead over Austria. If Austria stayed dominant, the interesting question is whether it would be able to find an integrated and more modern solution for both the HRE with its German areas and the non-German areas that was part of Austria.
 
Without Napoleon, we might not get the romantic nationalism of OTL at all.
Industrialisation would provoke some sort of responses, but what these were...
Question is: Does Nopoleon also mean No French Revolution? Or does the Revolution evolve differently? That has massive implications for how Germany develops (see Republic of Mayence etc.)
 
Without Napoleon, we might not get the romantic nationalism of OTL at all.
Industrialisation would provoke some sort of responses, but what these were...
Question is: Does Nopoleon also mean No French Revolution? Or does the Revolution evolve differently? That has massive implications for how Germany develops (see Republic of Mayence etc.)
Napoleon didn't start the Revolution. He got in later on during the wars against other states, got himself made President of Italy by vetoing all other proposed candidates, ransacked Switzerland and Malta, then used the proceeds to invade Egypt. Afterwhich, while moving through Syria, he abandoned his men and went home where people hadn't heard about his defeats and failures down there as much as his successes in Italy, then got rid of the... Whichever part of the French Revolution had senators in blue robes and ugly hats with feathers. Maybe we should look into his coconspirators for the coup or his enemies, so we can find alternative leaders. Maybe that General who was winning the war in northeast Italy before the French and Austrians made the Peace of Campo Formio. Apparently some feel Napoleon pushed that peace, so as to take away credit for the general who was conquering Venice, by giving the land to Austria.

I also don't feel the French really set up many Republics. Well, not from whole clothe. They invaded and set up states where they already had republics set as in northern Italy, Switzerland, the Netherlands, etc. Sure, they were often oligarchies, and they set up the Roman Republic, and supported the Reoublic of Liege which sprung up on its own, but they often annexed the more valuable areas. It was a long war. Lots happened. Come to think of it, aren't the French Revolutionary Wars and the Napoleonic Wars considered as seperate?
 
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I know Napoléon didn't start the revolution. I just wondered if the OP wanted none of the hre-wrecking upheaval or just nopoleon.
 
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