With The Crescent Above Us
- Thread starter Nassirisimo
- Start date
Razgriz 2K9
Banned
It's only been two battles and already it's devolved into a no holds barred slugfest. If Nicholas gets lucky, he might pull off, at best, a Pyrrhic victory in Plevna.
Unfortunately, I've not been able to find any photos of the Russo-Turkish war, which is rather odd. There will be nice photographic accompaniments to later updates though, so you need not fear.
That's if Nicholas gets lucky. Many of his contemporaries noted that he wasn't the best commander around, so without spoiling too much, I'll simply say that it is unlikely he can even do as well as OTL with his operational situation significantly worsened.
Well, there will be no military Great Power support for the Ottomans, though there will be some support during the peace negotiations afterward.
That's surprising, since there was photography of earlier wars in Europe as well. Maybe there's a PoD there-Roger Fenton's Crimean War photographs sell better. Actually, that could be a cool project.
An Ottoman victory in 1877 timeline? I think this is only the second one I've seen here (the other one being Oinkel Willie's TL).
I will definitely keep an eye on this.
I will definitely keep an eye on this.
Even if he takes Plevna, he won't hold it for long - he'll have been bled white, and there's a fresh Ottoman army on its way.
Nevertheless, it will have the immediate attention within the context of retaining the Balkans after prevailing over pro-christian invasion. Demographic takes years to shift organically, so while the empire indeed has come into terms that it cannot cast out Islam, they can't neglect the christians either, which at this point still makes half the population of the empire's power base.
Anyway, it's nice to see that the war will proceed the way it should have been.
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Pan islamism was a response to the loss of wars and prestige. The conservatives blamed the government for that and that the government left the good old islamic ways for something that isnt working. There was a genuine belief that united islamic world could change that. If Ottomans grow powerfull and loss of land isnt an option, Ottomanism would work.
I have to ask, what are your plans about Bosnia, Serbia, Montenegro? They are your westernmost provinces, bordering Austria?
Especialy Bosnia. Do you keep it, do you sell it, do you develop it? What goes on? And if I may add, I am amazed that Serbs didnt cross into Bosnia once Russia invaded. Or into Kosovo area. I am sure they would cause a hell of a problem and a diversion in case of a Russian attack, just like in real Russo-Turkish war.
A part of Young Ottoman reforms was in fact a reaction towards the way Tanzimat proceeded in secularizing the empire. The contrast between authoritarian laicitism of the Kemalists and the populism of AKP began then.
I do agree that Ottomanism will have more success here, but Pan-Islamism will still be there, because while empire's Asian territories will get less attention with Balkans retained, they still matter, so does Ottoman Caliphacy over the Muslim World.
Should the Ottomans win, Bosnia will doubtlessly remain Ottoman.
I do agree that Ottomanism will have more success here, but Pan-Islamism will still be there, because while empire's Asian territories will get less attention with Balkans retained, they still matter, so does Ottoman Caliphacy over the Muslim World.
Should the Ottomans win, Bosnia will doubtlessly remain Ottoman.
The lucky one are captured, most are killed. Both the Russians and the Ottomans committed atrocities toward prisoners and the wounded during the war.
That makes it all the more confusing. There are a number of Russian paintings about the war, and indeed, there are a number of photos from the Ottoman Empire at the time (Abdul-Hamid II was a fan of photography, and sent photographers to many parts of his realm).
Well, there cannot be a ignoring of the Christian population of the Empire, which still do make a majority (if a slim one) in Europe, and who are very important in the commercial life of the Empire. Indeed, many of the bankers based in Galata were Ottoman Christians. While pan-Islam is getting more attention, Ottomanism won't be totally abandoned, and the reformers will retain some power to moderate the Sultans pan-Islamist tenancies.
Well, the Islamism seen in the 1880's and beyond wasn't really a reactionary move set at taking back the Empire, but rather giving reforms a different framework. While democratic reform was stopped nearly entirely in the reign of Abdul-Hamid II, the other reforms of the Tanzimat era continued full steam. Railroad mileage increased 3 fold, thousands of new schools were built, and the army continued to be reformed.
As for Bosnia, Serbia and Montenegro, the Serbs and Montenegrins stay out of this war. The Serbs and Montenegrins had been defeated only a few months before by the Ottomans, and in light of the lack of Russian success after Plevna, have decided to stay neutral in order to preserve themselves as best as possible. Bosnia will be kept. The Ottomans were quite reluctant to hand it over OTL, due to the large concentration of Muslims in the area. The Ottoman's goal in Europe is the try and retain as much as they can in Europe, and so they would be retreating from any provinces without losing a fight.
Well, the office of the Caliphate will be made more important due to Abdul-Hamid's personal interest in it as well as its potential use in foreign affairs. The reforms carried out after the war will still differ to those of the Tanzimat. Although the financial situation will be much brighter than it was OTL, Abdul-Hamid was aware that the increasing amount of debt the Empire held was potentially dangerous, and so won't be quite as flagrant with his money as his brother Abdul-Aziz was.
From Yahya Mushayma, The Russo-Turkish War
The Road to Sanadinovo
In a telegram to Osman Pasha on the 1st of September, Hussain Avni Pasha, who had been named as the general of the Ottoman “Army of Rumelia” informed Osman that he was on the way with an army of 90,000 to relieve his position at Plevna. However, before he could engage the main Russian army at Plevna, he had to destroy the 20,000 Russian soldiers in his way at the town of Lukovit first. However, Hussain Avni Pasha was optimistic about the Ottoman chances of a success. Not only did the Ottomans outnumber the Russians nearly five times over, but he also had around 288 pieces of modern breech loading artillery with him, enough to pulverize troops who were not protected by solid defenses.
Ottoman reconnaissance reported that the Russians had formed a defensive line in the town itself, using its buildings as cover. It appeared to be a strong defensive position that would cost the Ottomans many casualties before they took the town. However, Hussain Avni Pasha had studied recent wars closely, and decided that a Prussian style envelopment of the town’s defenders might prove to be a better tactic. The Russian commander, Nikolai Krindener, was more comfortable in an offensive rather than defensive role. His perceived slight at being sent away from the main theater of battle was taken to be a personal insult aimed at him, and his private anger manifested itself as lethargy in his command. He refused to make any preparations for the battle other than quartering troops in the houses of the townsfolk, and allowing them to engage in a massacre of the Muslims inhabiting it.
The Ottoman assault on the town began with a short, five minute artillery bombardment that left the Russians terrified at the intensity of it. However, the real damage to the Russian forces was negligible, as the Russian soldiers had been quartered in the stone buildings of the town. Avni Pasha ordered Suleiman Pasha and his Redif (reserve) troops to frontally assault the town. They did this, but being unable to fire effectively at the Russians, they began taking casualties as they approached the town. The lighter troops were sent forward as skirmishers and the remaining troops formed attack columns, but the attack was thrown back after suffering bloody losses. Thankfully, Avni Pasha’s plan did not rely on a frontal assault, and even as the Redif attack was stopped cold, the Nizam troops had marched around the flanks of the Russian defense, and now started attacking the Russians where they weren't expected. Russian casualties soon began to mount, but eventually the battle degenerated into one of street fighting and door to door combat. Still, the tendency of the Russian Krenk gun to jam meant that the Turks had the firepower advantage on their side.
The Battle was over by the afternoon of the 3rd of September. Around 5000 Russians had escaped back to the main army at Plevna, and a further 12,000 were captured, leaving 3000 dead. The Ottomans had suffered around 4000 dead and wounded, most of them being the third rate Redif. Nicholas was infuriated when he had heard how easily the taking of Lukovit had been for the Turks. His position was now compromised. Although his reinforcements had arrived he still had only 68,000 men to the Turk’s 115,000. More reinforcements were coming from Russia, but they would not arrive in time. However, it was too late for an orderly retreat across the Danube into friendly territory for now, so he decided to pull back to the village of Sanadinovo, and attempt to give the Turks a bloody enough nose that they would hold off until his reinforcements arrived. This was a foolhardy decision. The Turks had proven that they could take defensive positions that hadn't been properly prepared, and it would take many weeks for enough reinforcements to arrive to make up for the current disparity in troops numbers.
On the Turkish side, Osman Pashas army finally met the Army of Rumelia. Osman Pasha received the highest honors from Sultan Abdul-Hamid himself, and the most senior commanders of the Ottoman army retired to plan to assault on the Russian army. After three days of preparation, as well as integrating the many armies that had joined up in the course of the war, the Turks marched toward the Russian position at Sanadinovo, and defeated the Russians in a skirmish about 2 miles east of the town. Quite a number of foreign journalists had arrived near the site of the battlefield now, and were being informed that the Turks would go on the assault the next day. Newspapers in Europe and America spoke excitedly of the Russian Bear being caught off-balance and vulnerable. The end of the Russo-Turkish war was in sight, only a few months after it had started.
In Constantinople, the recently convened parliament spoke in muttered tones about the increasingly good news from the front. Before he had left for the front, he had given a speech to the parliament praising the defense of Plevna, and urging Parliament to keep working for the good of the nation. In private however, it had appeared that Abdulhamid was already becoming disenchanted with the Parliament. There had been rumblings of re-instating the deposed Sultan Murad but for now, the support for this was highly limited in its scope. It was partly what he saw as the backstabbing and the intrigues of parliament that had motivated Abdulhamid to go to the front, as well as a desire to share in the glory that could come from a victory.
Victorious Ottoman troops enter Lukovit
* * * * * * * *
Plevna, 1877
Abdul-Hamid surveyed his army as it was massing. He had the great misfortune to become the Sultan at an exceptionally bad time, as the Empire had been in internal chaos, with a number of Vilayets in revolt. To make matters worse, the Russians invaded only a few months after he had been enthroned. However, looking at the sight of the growing Ottoman ‘Army of Rumelia’, as well as the thousands of Russian prisoners his troops had captured in the past few days, he began to feel a cautious optimism. There was still much work to be done, but both his War Minister and his generals told him that they felt there was a good chance that they could actually push the Russian armies back over the Danube. A young attendant approached him and said that his war council had gathered and was waiting to debrief him.
Abdul-Hamid entered the room where the war council had been assembled. The thirty or so men present were mostly high ranking officers, and was at the moment the closest thing that the Ottomans had to a general staff. He headed toward the chair at the head of the table and sat down. The room was silent until Hussain Avni Pasha spoke up. “My Sultan, the generals and I have been discussing the plan for the next few days. The Russians have suffered very casualties in their attempt to break through the defences at Plevna, and we now outnumber them in Rumelia. Military intelligence has indicated that the Russians are attempting to regroup at a village named Sanadinovo, though they have also noted that the Russians appear to be making little effort to establish a defensive position”
Abdul-Hamid replied “I see. So they are intending to move somewhere else soon enough?”
“That’s what appears to be the situation. I would not be surprised if they head back over the Danube if left unchecked. However, we have discussed the matter and we agree. If the Russians are allowed to retreat into friendly territory, they could assemble a force superior then ours within a few weeks. That is why we have decided to attack them as soon as possible, so that their ability to prepare an invasion force in the next few months is destroyed”
“You are sure that our forces are prepared?
“They are not totally prepared, but we will not have a better chance to smash the Russian army then this, so we have all agreed it would be better to risk an offensive now”
“So what is your plan? The exact plan I mean”
“Well, the Russians are short on artillery, and I expect that their troops are demoralised. Osman Pasha suggested surrounding the Russians with our army, but unfortunately, the terrain in the area would make that a very difficult task. We have decided it would be more prudent to attack them in 2 areas, from the South and the West. I doubt that the Russians have the reserves to counter-attack us should it be a success”
“Then I can only hope that the plan succeeds. With God’s help, we will smash the Russians"
The Road to Sanadinovo
In a telegram to Osman Pasha on the 1st of September, Hussain Avni Pasha, who had been named as the general of the Ottoman “Army of Rumelia” informed Osman that he was on the way with an army of 90,000 to relieve his position at Plevna. However, before he could engage the main Russian army at Plevna, he had to destroy the 20,000 Russian soldiers in his way at the town of Lukovit first. However, Hussain Avni Pasha was optimistic about the Ottoman chances of a success. Not only did the Ottomans outnumber the Russians nearly five times over, but he also had around 288 pieces of modern breech loading artillery with him, enough to pulverize troops who were not protected by solid defenses.
Ottoman reconnaissance reported that the Russians had formed a defensive line in the town itself, using its buildings as cover. It appeared to be a strong defensive position that would cost the Ottomans many casualties before they took the town. However, Hussain Avni Pasha had studied recent wars closely, and decided that a Prussian style envelopment of the town’s defenders might prove to be a better tactic. The Russian commander, Nikolai Krindener, was more comfortable in an offensive rather than defensive role. His perceived slight at being sent away from the main theater of battle was taken to be a personal insult aimed at him, and his private anger manifested itself as lethargy in his command. He refused to make any preparations for the battle other than quartering troops in the houses of the townsfolk, and allowing them to engage in a massacre of the Muslims inhabiting it.
The Ottoman assault on the town began with a short, five minute artillery bombardment that left the Russians terrified at the intensity of it. However, the real damage to the Russian forces was negligible, as the Russian soldiers had been quartered in the stone buildings of the town. Avni Pasha ordered Suleiman Pasha and his Redif (reserve) troops to frontally assault the town. They did this, but being unable to fire effectively at the Russians, they began taking casualties as they approached the town. The lighter troops were sent forward as skirmishers and the remaining troops formed attack columns, but the attack was thrown back after suffering bloody losses. Thankfully, Avni Pasha’s plan did not rely on a frontal assault, and even as the Redif attack was stopped cold, the Nizam troops had marched around the flanks of the Russian defense, and now started attacking the Russians where they weren't expected. Russian casualties soon began to mount, but eventually the battle degenerated into one of street fighting and door to door combat. Still, the tendency of the Russian Krenk gun to jam meant that the Turks had the firepower advantage on their side.
The Battle was over by the afternoon of the 3rd of September. Around 5000 Russians had escaped back to the main army at Plevna, and a further 12,000 were captured, leaving 3000 dead. The Ottomans had suffered around 4000 dead and wounded, most of them being the third rate Redif. Nicholas was infuriated when he had heard how easily the taking of Lukovit had been for the Turks. His position was now compromised. Although his reinforcements had arrived he still had only 68,000 men to the Turk’s 115,000. More reinforcements were coming from Russia, but they would not arrive in time. However, it was too late for an orderly retreat across the Danube into friendly territory for now, so he decided to pull back to the village of Sanadinovo, and attempt to give the Turks a bloody enough nose that they would hold off until his reinforcements arrived. This was a foolhardy decision. The Turks had proven that they could take defensive positions that hadn't been properly prepared, and it would take many weeks for enough reinforcements to arrive to make up for the current disparity in troops numbers.
On the Turkish side, Osman Pashas army finally met the Army of Rumelia. Osman Pasha received the highest honors from Sultan Abdul-Hamid himself, and the most senior commanders of the Ottoman army retired to plan to assault on the Russian army. After three days of preparation, as well as integrating the many armies that had joined up in the course of the war, the Turks marched toward the Russian position at Sanadinovo, and defeated the Russians in a skirmish about 2 miles east of the town. Quite a number of foreign journalists had arrived near the site of the battlefield now, and were being informed that the Turks would go on the assault the next day. Newspapers in Europe and America spoke excitedly of the Russian Bear being caught off-balance and vulnerable. The end of the Russo-Turkish war was in sight, only a few months after it had started.
In Constantinople, the recently convened parliament spoke in muttered tones about the increasingly good news from the front. Before he had left for the front, he had given a speech to the parliament praising the defense of Plevna, and urging Parliament to keep working for the good of the nation. In private however, it had appeared that Abdulhamid was already becoming disenchanted with the Parliament. There had been rumblings of re-instating the deposed Sultan Murad but for now, the support for this was highly limited in its scope. It was partly what he saw as the backstabbing and the intrigues of parliament that had motivated Abdulhamid to go to the front, as well as a desire to share in the glory that could come from a victory.
Victorious Ottoman troops enter Lukovit
* * * * * * * *
Plevna, 1877
Abdul-Hamid surveyed his army as it was massing. He had the great misfortune to become the Sultan at an exceptionally bad time, as the Empire had been in internal chaos, with a number of Vilayets in revolt. To make matters worse, the Russians invaded only a few months after he had been enthroned. However, looking at the sight of the growing Ottoman ‘Army of Rumelia’, as well as the thousands of Russian prisoners his troops had captured in the past few days, he began to feel a cautious optimism. There was still much work to be done, but both his War Minister and his generals told him that they felt there was a good chance that they could actually push the Russian armies back over the Danube. A young attendant approached him and said that his war council had gathered and was waiting to debrief him.
Abdul-Hamid entered the room where the war council had been assembled. The thirty or so men present were mostly high ranking officers, and was at the moment the closest thing that the Ottomans had to a general staff. He headed toward the chair at the head of the table and sat down. The room was silent until Hussain Avni Pasha spoke up. “My Sultan, the generals and I have been discussing the plan for the next few days. The Russians have suffered very casualties in their attempt to break through the defences at Plevna, and we now outnumber them in Rumelia. Military intelligence has indicated that the Russians are attempting to regroup at a village named Sanadinovo, though they have also noted that the Russians appear to be making little effort to establish a defensive position”
Abdul-Hamid replied “I see. So they are intending to move somewhere else soon enough?”
“That’s what appears to be the situation. I would not be surprised if they head back over the Danube if left unchecked. However, we have discussed the matter and we agree. If the Russians are allowed to retreat into friendly territory, they could assemble a force superior then ours within a few weeks. That is why we have decided to attack them as soon as possible, so that their ability to prepare an invasion force in the next few months is destroyed”
“You are sure that our forces are prepared?
“They are not totally prepared, but we will not have a better chance to smash the Russian army then this, so we have all agreed it would be better to risk an offensive now”
“So what is your plan? The exact plan I mean”
“Well, the Russians are short on artillery, and I expect that their troops are demoralised. Osman Pasha suggested surrounding the Russians with our army, but unfortunately, the terrain in the area would make that a very difficult task. We have decided it would be more prudent to attack them in 2 areas, from the South and the West. I doubt that the Russians have the reserves to counter-attack us should it be a success”
“Then I can only hope that the plan succeeds. With God’s help, we will smash the Russians"
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