With the Crescent Above Us 2.0: An Ottoman Timeline

[haider najib]

Missed the last two updates. So the ottomans more or less got a draw not a victory.

The navy has not done well i can see them suffering to support the army.

So the empire hasn't proven anything. Going to be interesting to see what great powers do. Austrian german alliance. I can see the french maybe valuing the ottomans like italy and invest in them to counter austria.

 

[Aghstadian]

Well Ibrahim Osman "turning turk" certainly will catapult his career now he his a "someone" not just a blank face in the army.

Good update. Speaking of foreigner there are suprising number of American civil war veteran serve in Ottoman/Egyptian Army in this period hope to eventually see them.

 

[Indicus]

A new TL by Nassirisimo! Well, I’m definitely subscribed. The last version of this TL was great, but definitely flawed, and I’m glad to see you’re making a new version of it with better writing.

In regards to the last update, I’m a bit saddened that the character is forced to change his religion for no reason other than to keep a job, and especially that this sort of thing happened IOTL as well. But I suppose that’s the nature of the late nineteenth century. It’ll definitely be interesting to see the trajectory of a relatively ordinary man.

 

[haider najib]

Hopefully the ottoman-japanese alliance becomes a thing in this tl again. Was a highlight of the old one. With no real clout in europe could the ottomans push for closer ties to the US, as there the only nation that doesn't benefit from ottoman partition. Alliance of the three oceans maybe?

Ottomans completely sitting out a world war know seems very likely as they simply can't intervene like they did in the old tl. Rather abolish the capitulations and make money.

Also what is france view of the ottomans? The british its a bulwark for russia nothing more. It would interesting to see which nation france picks italy or ottomans, ignoring rational attitudes ottomans have a higher ceiling and a wider border with austria. If france does remain close to ottomans, italy has less reason to work with them so a fully committed central power italy.

Did the peace treaty happen yet?

 

[Berat2beti]

Oh shit it’s back! Gotta say man I loved your first story, you filled out a niche cause so many Alternate-History stories have “and than the Ottomans collapsed” and not for any reason just boom it somehow happened. Glad to see a focus on the Ottomans and I hope to see more soon.

 

[Noblesse Oblige]

Oh shit it’s back! Gotta say man I loved your first story, you filled out a niche cause so many Alternate-History stories have “and than the Ottomans collapsed” and not for any reason just boom it somehow happened. Glad to see a focus on the Ottomans and I hope to see more soon.

It's probably why some are sticklers for Ottoman TL's of this period, if only to try their luck at keeping the Ottomans going to the modern day.

Also probably why I'm a fan of Nasirissimo's TL's in general, be it either this, his surviving Afsharid TLs or his Kingdom of Pontus TL.

 

[MagicalPhantom345]

Hopefully the ottoman-japanese alliance becomes a thing in this tl again. Was a highlight of the old one. With no real clout in europe could the ottomans push for closer ties to the US, as there the only nation that doesn't benefit from ottoman partition. Alliance of the three oceans maybe?

Ottomans completely sitting out a world war know seems very likely as they simply can't intervene like they did in the old tl. Rather abolish the capitulations and make money.

Also what is france view of the ottomans? The british its a bulwark for russia nothing more. It would interesting to see which nation france picks italy or ottomans, ignoring rational attitudes ottomans have a higher ceiling and a wider border with austria. If france does remain close to ottomans, italy has less reason to work with them so a fully committed central power italy.

Did the peace treaty happen yet?

I never actually realized how much the Japanese and Ottomans have in common until you brought it up.
Also wouldn't they still join the alliance system if the Serbs join the Central powers?

 

[haider najib]

Also wouldn't they still join the alliance system if the Serbs join the Central powers

Not really the ottomans haven't proven anything as of yet so may not be seen as valuable. Also it depends on the alliance itself would the entente willingly put russia in a bad mood for the ottos. No one sees any advantage that the ottomans can bring expect for bulwarkness and to slow the other side down which they already. Which side they side will have to support them financially etc is it worth it?

Also the ottomans don't have the power to do stuff or europe or reassurance. Again them being destroyed and paritioned by europe is always possible, and you can find a way for all the european nations to benefit. However the one thing the ottomans know that make them safe right now is is extremely hard to get cross european consensus to kill the porte, but that modifier is lost when the ottomans join he european game as its march easier for entente to agree to kill the ottomans, same for the central powers and any other atl european alliance. Equally neither alliance would be designed against the ottomans most european nations know they could take on the ottomans 1 on 1.

Instead side with japan (russia, not white or christian and being outsiders know nation has competing goals). USA much harder to get but achieving it gives a bigger reward. The nation has its own type of imperialism which poses little threat to the porte, and USA goal for profit can help the ottomans. USA could be used to help ottomans industrialise and modernise. The americans can use the ottomans to spread there influence to europe and guard there trade routes if they want a more direct way.

 

[Berat2beti]

The Americans in the last TL were just sorta there, and got massively screwed over which I always find hard to believe I mean whether it’s a story or a game(Hearts of Iron 4)the USA getting screwed over and splitting into syndicalists, federalists, New California Republic and fascists always felt more of a way for the writer or game designer to create conflict in the America’s and to keep the USA from ascending to the economic super power that we see after WW2. Which in a game stand point makes sense it gives the players who pick America a challenge and not an easy mode run, and it gives the KaiserReich a chance to consolidate and not instantly lose there newly gained overseas empire to the Yankees industrial might.

But in a story setting it feels very forced and I just can’t buy it. It’s easy to stomach a Balkanization of the US if say the Civil War went really badly for the North, but by the 20th century? Yah it’s just a bit to out there cause after all this TL isn’t radically different from our own just a few things going right for the Ottomans in a war they could’ve well won in OTL.

Idk what the plans for the USA are but I can see at least slightly warmer relations cause as it was said the Krupp guns while nice were not the saving grace of the Ottomans due to the armies decencies in there training, so it stands to reason the Peabody Martini rifle really carried the day over the Russian Krenk rifle which we saw it did. So it never hurts for say the Sultan to express his immense pleasure in the US manufacturers(after all sick man of Europe or not it’s still great marketing to say your gun has the admiration of a far off king and “Won” a war)maybe there can be a bit of an “Americana fad” in Istanbul.

 

[MagicalPhantom345]

I didn't follow the first version, but what I saw gave me the impression it became a central powers wank, with stations of OTL on the side

 

[LostInNewDelhi]

Aww, so this time we won't see the S U B L I M E boys getting the GDP high score by the 21st century? A pity. These initial chapters of 2.0 have been promising, I wonder if Ibrahim Osman's family could be used consistently as PoV characters to show the Ottomans' progress over time like Male Rising's Abacars.

To contribute to the discussion on Crescent 1.0, here are some things in no particular order:

• The oil industry solving the Ottomans' financial troubles is believable, but that this prosperity would go uninterrupted is questionable. The Ottomans have most of OPEC under their direct governance, and paranoia over that fact will only grow when they do something like taking a revolutionary regime in Iran (their only local rival in oil supply) under their wing, right after that same regime reverses the results of a British-Ottoman bidding war over oil. Even if Iran stays happily liberal-republican, cynicism over Ottoman intentions would be quite high. I think that at least some foreign powers would try to chip away at the Ottomans' inevitable control of world oil, and they'd do it with the same allies they found in OTL-- rulers in Arabia incensed at the cultural changes in Constantinople and frightened by increasing centralization. Or you could have some new players-- for example, a militantly anti-Ottoman Shia movement (inspired by the Alevi persecutions in Anatolia?) would pose a threat to Southern Iraq, Dhahran, and Bahrain. That's more or less an existential threat for the Ottoman economy.
• And also, if the Ottomans end up facing little resistance, I think they'd be encouraged to push outward to stall rivals or "make friends" on the Iranian model (we'll defend you if you follow our lead on oil production). The Ottomans announcing their status as world hegemon with a controversial intervention in Venezuela (they're harboring Resurgentist fugitives who want to take our God-given freedoms!) would be... plausible, given the OTL 21st century so far.
• Along with the conspicuous lack of discontent in the Balkans and Arabia, there's also the matter of Africa. In Egypt itself, the Ahmed Urabi revolt leading to resumed Ottoman rule seems like it would just reorient the existing criticism of politicians putting European needs above Egypt's... toward the Ottomans instead. In 1.0 I believe this was resolved by having Arabic be the sole official language of Egypt but still-- the legacy of the early Khedivate's triumphs and Egypt's initial success with genuine self-governance would, I think, lead to Egypt opposing the Constantinople consensus on a lot of matters and being stringently in favor of greater autonomy to provincial governments. Essentially, Texas turned up to 11 :^) I guess it wouldn't be "Lone Crescent," though. Three Crescents? But yeah, it would be fun to see some kind of regional rivalry between the historically prosperous and culturally diverse/Westernized West Turkish Coast and a more conservative but still very business-friendly/outward-looking Egypt along the lines of Texas-California. Or other forms of regional rivalry unprecedented in OTL
• Also, The "Afro-Turk" demographic of mixed-race/assimilated Africans was awfully quick to form/gain acceptance, despite arising from a colonial scramble and likely struggling with the bias against zanj that gave rise to the Zanzibari/Sahelian slave economy. I'm just not sold on the idea that Ottomans would be enlightened enough as colonialists to essentially achieve Salazar's "pluricontinental" ambitions and forestall an African independence movement-- the only thing separating Rabih-az Zubayr from a French concessionary company is that one party's unethical exploits were listed on a stock exchange.
• Lenin and Price Alexei achieving Tsarbol Gang was epic, though absolutist monarchism and absolutist progressivism filing off each other's edges to achieve a more or less happy liberalism seems... odd. At the very least I'd expect this compromise to be more stringently challenged by disenchanted left/right movements who now see their heroes/last hopes as traitors and turn elsewhere for inspiration. Maybe continued inequality leads to a resurgence of Anarchism, bolstered by Communist defectors?

Generally, I think that a lot of possible trouble spots in 1.0 were rather quickly resolved (Russia), and this includes the Ottomans themselves-- past the 1930s they essentially stop worrying about internal tension, and it becomes all about projecting power outwards against the British and the like.

 

[haider najib]

The Americans in the last TL were just sorta there, and got massively screwed over which I always find hard to believe I mean whether it’s a story or a game(Hearts of Iron 4)the USA getting screwed over and splitting into syndicalists, federalists, New California Republic and fascists always felt more of a way for the writer or game designer to create conflict in the America’s and to keep the USA from ascending to the economic super power that we see after WW2. Which in a game stand point makes sense it gives the players who pick America a challenge and not an easy mode run, and it gives the KaiserReich a chance to consolidate and not instantly lose there newly gained overseas empire to the Yankees industrial might.

To be fair USA never collapsed rather suffered internal issues such as socialism political culture. The life for the person in the USA was not getting better simply it was a worse great recession where republicans and democrats would rather work with each other to stop socialist winning a election than fix the issues at hand.

But in a story setting it feels very forced and I just can’t buy it. It’s easy to stomach a Balkanization of the US if say the Civil War went really badly for the North, but by the 20th century

There was no balkanisation USA had a bloodless coup (which some posters criticised as being unrealistic in the old tl) of the socialist president being ousted. Simply the USA went through political turbulence which is entirely possible, the USA never got screwed unless saying USA never become sole super power and having the world largest economy my such a margin is a screw. The titles for america were like the rot sets in. Also no world wars where the USA where involved in. You completely ignored alot of american success comes from a shattered europe and it gaining from both world wars which have not happened here. Simply in this world europe has not been conpletely destroyed so don't have to play catch up, and america has a worse politicial situation, but nothing indicates they were fucked. Simply they remained more isolationist, there a giant but not america world police force and trigger happy about every conflict they can join.

 

[Indicus]

USA had a bloodless coup (which some posters criticised as being unrealistic in the old tl) of the socialist president being ousted.

Yeah, that definitely sounds implausible. With an early enough POD you could have radical leaders being overthrown in a coup, but a POD in the 1870s is certainly not it. Making a stable country into one which sees a coup is most definitely what I would call a screw, in any case.

 

[haider najib]

Making a stable country into one which sees a coup is most definitely what I would call a screw, in any case

The country wasn't stable before hand, and thats the most dangerous it got how is that a screw? The USA lost no land, its still an industrial giant and a economic giant. How is it a screw nothing changed except no socalist party in the usa. Your complaint is there not doing as well as they did otl. The usa did not collapse, lose a war, have a rebellion or civil war. Its economy is still big. You literally have otl problems exacerbated such as the clan.

The tl literally states 1952 the US is already a fully functional democracy the coup happened in 1938.

Edit: got 1952 and 1938 mixed up.

 

[Nassirisimo]

Hello guys!

Sorry about the relative quietness on my part. Unfortunately due to a combination of computer breakdowns and a lack of actually making backups I have lost pretty much everything related to the timeline such as updates, notes and books. Combined with the fact that I'm currently in the process of relocating, it may be a little while before I'm able to continue with the timeline, which is a shame considering that it had only just started. Rest assured that it will be back!

 

[Berat2beti]

Ooh my heart it hurts for you, I’ve had that happen before losing work to crappy computers.

If only their was more Ottoman stories that give them a fair shake to hold me over until your ready.

 

[TimTurner]

a sublime TL about a sublime porte.

 

[Ebanu8]

Interesting thread. Subbed.

 

[Iarumas]

What I apreaciate about this TL is that it reads like a believable historical source, which is great. Even the POV pieces are written in a similar enough way that I would say it wouldnt be too out of place for an actual diary of that time.

Keep it up, loving it so far.

 

[SomeFollowTheStars]

Hello guys!

Sorry about the relative quietness on my part. Unfortunately due to a combination of computer breakdowns and a lack of actually making backups I have lost pretty much everything related to the timeline such as updates, notes and books. Combined with the fact that I'm currently in the process of relocating, it may be a little while before I'm able to continue with the timeline, which is a shame considering that it had only just started. Rest assured that it will be back!

That's absolutely horrible, I'm so sorry to hear that.