With the Crescent Above Us 2.0: An Ottoman Timeline

One thing i hope is handled better here in version 2.0 is latter france. They went communist the whites fled to algeria. We really don't know what type of communist regime it is but no red terror, the hallmarks and common traits of totalitarian regimes. The whites under Petain launch a success invasion of france easily over throwing the reds, but commit no white terror or purges of leftists and whites fighting are going to have a high portion of anti communists, facists, monarchist than plain old people when it came to political opinion. Less than 10 years the nation then goes to war against the ottomans and then surrender as algeria falls even though mainland france is fine. France is weird since franco prussian war they lost almost all the major wars they fought, went through civil war (within decade i think), to a communist regime, to white invasion and a new anti communist gov. The nation should have 100% war exhaustion why join the brits simply there simply can't be any part of french society that wanted war they literally been in conflict for the last 20 years. On the other hand they just became a bunch surrender monkeys because algeria fell but the mainland was safe.

Like don't get me wrong i love a Kaiserreich beating up france but late france in the original tl was all over the place.
 
One thing i hope is handled better here in version 2.0 is latter france. They went communist the whites fled to algeria. We really don't know what type of communist regime it is but no red terror, the hallmarks and common traits of totalitarian regimes. The whites under Petain launch a success invasion of france easily over throwing the reds, but commit no white terror or purges of leftists and whites fighting are going to have a high portion of anti communists, facists, monarchist than plain old people when it came to political opinion. Less than 10 years the nation then goes to war against the ottomans and then surrender as algeria falls even though mainland france is fine. France is weird since franco prussian war they lost almost all the major wars they fought, went through civil war (within decade i think), to a communist regime, to white invasion and a new anti communist gov. The nation should have 100% war exhaustion why join the brits simply there simply can't be any part of french society that wanted war they literally been in conflict for the last 20 years. On the other hand they just became a bunch surrender monkeys because algeria fell but the mainland was safe.

Like don't get me wrong i love a Kaiserreich beating up france but late france in the original tl was all over the place.

well, if the ottomans could go join a world war literally next year after losing a regional war I don't see why some jingoistic French wouldn't pull their country the same way. To add, they were victorious against the reds and with British help, they thought they could gain some of their prestige. But you're right about France in the last time line. It really was all over the place. Let's hope Nassir has something plausible in store this time.
 
I mean this in a spirit of constructive criticism, but I think the stuff with France and Germany was a weakness in the original story. The way France played out was the old Kaiserreich TL cliche, and Germany allies with Britain in most alt-Great War timelines.

That being said, it's the author's timeline and they need to be true to their own personal taste.
 
well, if the ottomans could go join a world war literally next year after losing a regional war
When was this in the tl?

some jingoistic French wouldn't pull their country the same way.
They come out of civil war, which had lasted for years and the nation still hadn't recovered from the last world war. The population wouldn't be united. The country has been under red rule, they simply can't be rebuild france in one year or refit the military in that time. Also red france did enforce some weird cultural things so can the white government trust even trust mainland french?

If its jingoism we have to remember france gave more land to italy Corsica and Nice.

To add, they were victorious against the reds
Reds was metropolitan france, the whites were military who fled mainland, refugess or pied noirs, volunteers and the brits.

I still want to see france be crushed and all that but, lets see france still try and play balance of power better or simply accept becoming a secondary after losing to germany france going right wing or left eing have been done what about france accepting its new power status. Also france trying to court allies would be fun to see they could realistcally bribe the ottomans to join a allaince between them, and russia, will it work no but could be cool to see proposed. No capitulation, french investment, french advisors for military, industry, and government. We saw little courting for the ottomans in the original, with abdul hamid he could play the europeans against each other, @Koprulu Mustafa Pasha get in here you know more about abdul hamid.
 
The way France played out was the old Kaiserreich TL cliche, and Germany allies with Britain in most alt-Great War timelines.
Tbf wasn't that technically new stuff when it was written, also one thing i remember is italy does better since then, most ww1 tls italy always does better so it would be fresh if italy does an italy ie be medicore because most tls now italy always does well since the original tl.
 
When was this in the tl?


They come out of civil war, which had lasted for years and the nation still hadn't recovered from the last world war. The population wouldn't be united. The country has been under red rule, they simply can't be rebuild france in one year or refit the military in that time. Also red france did enforce some weird cultural things so can the white government trust even trust mainland french?

If its jingoism we have to remember france gave more land to italy Corsica and Nice.


Reds was metropolitan france, the whites were military who fled mainland, refugess or pied noirs, volunteers and the brits.

I still want to see france be crushed and all that but, lets see france still try and play balance of power better or simply accept becoming a secondary after losing to germany france going right wing or left eing have been done what about france accepting its new power status. Also france trying to court allies would be fun to see they could realistcally bribe the ottomans to join a allaince between them, and russia, will it work no but could be cool to see proposed. No capitulation, french investment, french advisors for military, industry, and government. We saw little courting for the ottomans in the original, with abdul hamid he could play the europeans against each other, @Koprulu Mustafa Pasha get in here you know more about abdul hamid.
Sorry for confusing representation of OTL balkan war of 1913. I should have made it clear in the first place.

Yes, you're right about the jingoism. But still maybe Nassir wanted to achieve a sort of alt vendetta against the 2 powers mainly responsible for dismemberment of OTL ottoman empire.:openedeyewink:
 
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Oh well, i remember the old TL, it was good and detailed but yes, it was a little of a Ottoman wank, IMVHO the change doesn't need to be great but just make for the Ottoman things more difficult to obtain the same result

- Tunisia (it was the part were it showed for me that the TL was a really tilted on Ottoman favor), sure the UK can support the Ottoman on regain control of Tunisia but there are other factor to take in consideration, the place was de facto an italian protectorare and even the French had a lot of influence both political and economical. Maybe she is given back to the Ottoman during an alt-Berlin conference but with the assurance that the debt will be paid and the previous capitulation will be kept till the treaty expires; but this also mean bring France and Italy together as no Tunisi crisis mean that a lot of tension between the two nations are not there, and London know perfectely this, so they have a reason to support a move that can potentially create an hostile alliance in a strategic point. Maybe the Porte is more ready to give some concession to the British in other part or sign a treaty of alliance but in the end, the British need a good reason (aka reward) to support this move.
- Greece, ok keeping the Greeks down but this is the zenith of nationalism, so just menacing armed intervention and trying to buy them off economically will not be enough...keeping them on Ottoman sphere will also need at least a referendum on Thessaly and somekind of autonomy for Crete like teh OTL Pact of Halepa; basically you need to avoid OTL A-H error and gain allies by at least making sure that collaboration also mean reward and not only the honor of being considered your allies
- Industrialization, nothing to say here it was OK in the previous TL, the only thing that i will add it the social tension caused by such move, in the old one seemed that Iraq suddenly industrialize and everybody is happy and goes on with their lifes, maybe socialism on Medio-oriental flavor?
- Balkans...well, no there is no way that you can keep the things as now, not even trying to send more turkysh population in Bulgaria (it's a very realistic move but you can also get a situation like North Ireland); maybe trying to use Serbia or Bulgaria as an ally to keep the other down, or trying to keep control and obtain a long sore spot that resolve giving to both the equivalent of Dominion status...just remember that this are the balkans, there is no bad guys or good guys only blood and hate. Just because the Ottoman had a lot of military power and no or little external support, this doesn't mean that there will be nobody that will fight back as OTL demonstrated in many places
- enstablish again effective control in zone that were just before only nominally under your suzerainity, well it's a good move but need also good diplomatic skill, ability of compromise a nice show of force...or overwhelmy brutality and lot of patience, the old/new place were basically left alone (Eritrea) and having someone suddenly starting to bark order will not make happy anyone
 
Oh god, it's back...

...And there's still no earrape Ottoman music.
There you go.
Someone let me know if you find the Hard Bass versions of some Mehter marches.
Oh, I am very much looking forward to this.

That is exactly the kind of writing I enjoy. A few hundred words and already we sense the human.
Well that's good because we'll be seeing much more of Ibrahim/Abraham in the future.
One thing i hope is handled better here in version 2.0 is latter france. They went communist the whites fled to algeria. We really don't know what type of communist regime it is but no red terror, the hallmarks and common traits of totalitarian regimes. The whites under Petain launch a success invasion of france easily over throwing the reds, but commit no white terror or purges of leftists and whites fighting are going to have a high portion of anti communists, facists, monarchist than plain old people when it came to political opinion. Less than 10 years the nation then goes to war against the ottomans and then surrender as algeria falls even though mainland france is fine. France is weird since franco prussian war they lost almost all the major wars they fought, went through civil war (within decade i think), to a communist regime, to white invasion and a new anti communist gov. The nation should have 100% war exhaustion why join the brits simply there simply can't be any part of french society that wanted war they literally been in conflict for the last 20 years. On the other hand they just became a bunch surrender monkeys because algeria fell but the mainland was safe.

Like don't get me wrong i love a Kaiserreich beating up france but late france in the original tl was all over the place.
I mean this in a spirit of constructive criticism, but I think the stuff with France and Germany was a weakness in the original story. The way France played out was the old Kaiserreich TL cliche, and Germany allies with Britain in most alt-Great War timelines.

That being said, it's the author's timeline and they need to be true to their own personal taste.
When was this in the tl?

They come out of civil war, which had lasted for years and the nation still hadn't recovered from the last world war. The population wouldn't be united. The country has been under red rule, they simply can't be rebuild france in one year or refit the military in that time. Also red france did enforce some weird cultural things so can the white government trust even trust mainland french?

If its jingoism we have to remember france gave more land to italy Corsica and Nice.

Reds was metropolitan france, the whites were military who fled mainland, refugess or pied noirs, volunteers and the brits.

I still want to see france be crushed and all that but, lets see france still try and play balance of power better or simply accept becoming a secondary after losing to germany france going right wing or left eing have been done what about france accepting its new power status. Also france trying to court allies would be fun to see they could realistcally bribe the ottomans to join a allaince between them, and russia, will it work no but could be cool to see proposed. No capitulation, french investment, french advisors for military, industry, and government. We saw little courting for the ottomans in the original, with abdul hamid he could play the europeans against each other, @Koprulu Mustafa Pasha get in here you know more about abdul hamid.
Tbf wasn't that technically new stuff when it was written, also one thing i remember is italy does better since then, most ww1 tls italy always does better so it would be fresh if italy does an italy ie be medicore because most tls now italy always does well since the original tl.
Sorry for confusing representation of OTL balkan war of 1913. I should have made it clear in the first place.

Yes, you're right about the jingoism. But still maybe Nassir wanted to achieve a sort of alt vendetta against the 2 powers mainly responsible for dismemberment of OTL ottoman empire.:openedeyewink:
There was a lot that was done in the old TL that was there merely to be a reversal of what happened in regular history as opposed to a proper reading of what the effects of the POD would be. A Britain that sides with Germany is a cool AH idea but, not to give too much away, certain events that you can probably all see coming would take away a lot of what caused tension between Britain and France as the 19th century came to a close. The old timeline also ignored the fact that France was actually the main investor within the Ottoman Empire for much of the 19th and early 20th centuries, with French investment in the Ottoman economy actually more significant than that of the British as well as the Germans.

Basically the outcomes of Europe were "the opposite of what happened in OTL should happen" in the old timeline, whereas they should have been more logical conclusions of "what happened next" following on from events that had happened in the timeline. Realistically the Ottomans were either a secondary power or, being charitable, was the very least of the Great powers before the Russo-Turkish War, and naturally because of this lack of power to some extent what changes in the Ottoman Empire would be less likely to change what goes on outside, excepting possible tinderboxes like the Balkans.
Oh well, i remember the old TL, it was good and detailed but yes, it was a little of a Ottoman wank, IMVHO the change doesn't need to be great but just make for the Ottoman things more difficult to obtain the same result

- Tunisia (it was the part were it showed for me that the TL was a really tilted on Ottoman favor), sure the UK can support the Ottoman on regain control of Tunisia but there are other factor to take in consideration, the place was de facto an italian protectorare and even the French had a lot of influence both political and economical. Maybe she is given back to the Ottoman during an alt-Berlin conference but with the assurance that the debt will be paid and the previous capitulation will be kept till the treaty expires; but this also mean bring France and Italy together as no Tunisi crisis mean that a lot of tension between the two nations are not there, and London know perfectely this, so they have a reason to support a move that can potentially create an hostile alliance in a strategic point. Maybe the Porte is more ready to give some concession to the British in other part or sign a treaty of alliance but in the end, the British need a good reason (aka reward) to support this move.
- Greece, ok keeping the Greeks down but this is the zenith of nationalism, so just menacing armed intervention and trying to buy them off economically will not be enough...keeping them on Ottoman sphere will also need at least a referendum on Thessaly and somekind of autonomy for Crete like teh OTL Pact of Halepa; basically you need to avoid OTL A-H error and gain allies by at least making sure that collaboration also mean reward and not only the honor of being considered your allies
- Industrialization, nothing to say here it was OK in the previous TL, the only thing that i will add it the social tension caused by such move, in the old one seemed that Iraq suddenly industrialize and everybody is happy and goes on with their lifes, maybe socialism on Medio-oriental flavor?
- Balkans...well, no there is no way that you can keep the things as now, not even trying to send more turkysh population in Bulgaria (it's a very realistic move but you can also get a situation like North Ireland); maybe trying to use Serbia or Bulgaria as an ally to keep the other down, or trying to keep control and obtain a long sore spot that resolve giving to both the equivalent of Dominion status...just remember that this are the balkans, there is no bad guys or good guys only blood and hate. Just because the Ottoman had a lot of military power and no or little external support, this doesn't mean that there will be nobody that will fight back as OTL demonstrated in many places
- enstablish again effective control in zone that were just before only nominally under your suzerainity, well it's a good move but need also good diplomatic skill, ability of compromise a nice show of force...or overwhelmy brutality and lot of patience, the old/new place were basically left alone (Eritrea) and having someone suddenly starting to bark order will not make happy anyone
Tunis, like Egypt, was technically an Ottoman territory in 1877. However it was further from the Imperial core than Egypt, and far closer to Europe geographically. As you point out there were a significant amount of Italian settlers, who outnumbered those of the French to some degree and the Italians had looked toward Tunis as a future potential colony. In the previous TL the rationale of the restoration of Ottoman control was a Tunisian bankruptcy that had happened many years before the takeover, and served as a giant middle finger to both Italy and France which realistically, the cautious Abdülhamid probably wouldn't have done. An Ottoman Tunisia isn't off the table, but it will almost certainly happen under different circumstances than in the last TL if it does happen.

Greece of course will be different, but to some extent I think her fate would be tied with what happens elsewhere. Greece in OTL couldn't hope to take on the weakened Ottoman Empire in 1896, and even her effort against the remains of the Empire came to naught in 1923 (whether or not the Greeks had a realistic chance to take and hold chunks of Anatolia is a matter for somewhere else. By 1877 Thessaly and Cyprus are solidly Greek, but elsewhere the picture is more muddied. In Macedonia there were large Slavic, Albanian and even Jewish populations alongside the Greeks and Turks, and although various groups made up majorities or pluralities in different areas of Macedonia, the place was from the perspective of an ethnic nationalist, a mess. Crete and various parts of Thrace and Western Anatolia (as well as a good chunk of Pontus) have a slight Greek majority but the Muslim population is large enough to give something for the Ottoman government to grab a hold of. This isn't to say that the Ottomans are guaranteed to keep a hold on these places though, just that Greece is unlikely to grab a hold of these territories on her own.

Industrialisation is granted. In any country that became industrialized, including Asian countries like Japan, there were massive amounts of social tensions generated by the process including a move toward leftist politics amongst many workers. It was something that I had unfortunately glossed over, along with dissent in general as the Empire tended to sort of evolve peacefully into a liberal democracy. Considering some of the personalities that were involved in the late empire this was something that I did regret later on.

The Balkans of course is a confusion. As I'd described with Macedonia before, it was a patchwork of competing nationalities and religions. The Serbs looked to Albanian-majority areas based on historical significance, the original principality of Bulgaria's Eastern regions were probably significantly more populated by Turks than the autonomous Eastern Rumelia was, and the Greeks claimed many Bulgarian-majority areas as Greek majority. Ultimately to some extent it will always be a bit difficult to establish what the facts on the ground actually were, and whose numbers were correct. The biggest issue with the Balkans that I'd had in OTL was the relative passiveness of the Balkan Christians post-1878. Even had Russian intervention proved unsuccessful, I doubt that peoples such as the Bulgarians would meekly accept their domination, and of course the independent states in the region such as Serbia may well still look toward policies of national expansion to improve their domestic situations. This will all of course be taken into account in this new scenario.
 
The Russo-Turkish War of 1877
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Henrique Felipe Salazar; The Conduct of War in Europe and Beyond, 1792 to 1912: Yale University Press


The Russo-Turkish War of 1877

If the Franco-Prussian War had shown the inadequacy of static defence in fixed positions against an opponent capable of complex small-scale unit manoeuvres, then the Russo-Turkish war demonstrated how, combined with modern weaponry, they could be devastating against an opponent reliant on more primitive tactics. In the war it was the Russian War plan that seemed to take the lessons of the Franco-Prussian War to heart. General Nikolai Obruchev had planned a quick strike into Turkish territory, isolating the main Turkish force in the Quadrilateral fortresses of the Dobrudja and driving on toward Istanbul. In comparison, the Turks planned only on an active defence of the Danube and the Balkan Mountain range, with no plan to take the offensive into Russian territory. In the opinion of European military experts, the plan that War Minister Hüseyin Avni Paşa had drawn up was “defeatist”, and was seen as similar to the defensive plan of Napoleon III which had failed so badly. Indeed in the absence of support from her traditional European allies, most observers predicted that the Russian assault would be the last blow to the tottering, bankrupt Ottoman Empire and began to anticipate a partition of the empire.

The Turks had a number of unexpected advantages despite her seemingly precarious position. Her army was already fully mobilised when the Russians had declared war on the 24th of April, leaving her with 165,000 troops available in Bulgaria to a Russian total of 200,000, a dangerous ratio for an attacker in the age of breech loading rifles and guns. The Turkish armies had a measure of experience from fighting rebels in Herzegovina and Bulgaria, as well as in their short war against Serbia. The Turkish forces also possessed better equipment, and the American-made Peabody-Martini rifles outranged the Russian Krenk rifle more than three times. Even the Turkish artillery, which was numerically inferior to that of the Russians, was comprised of breech-loading Krupp guns from Germany, which were superior in quality to the bronze guns of the Russians [1]. The Turkish navy, the world’s third largest at the time, also made coastal operations on the part of the Russians a difficult proposition, and had perhaps dictated the decision of Obruchev to circumvent the Turkish forces in the Dobrudja. It was only in cavalry where the Russians were clearly superior, with well-armed, well trained and well led men as opposed to the inadequate, poorly-horsed cavalry force possessed by the Turks.

The speed of the Russian cavalry lead to great problems for the Turks initially. Before Istanbul was even aware of the declaration of war, Russian cavalry had occupied the Romanian town of Galaţi and her troops were well on the way to Brăila. Once the Turks were fully aware of the situation, her flotilla on the Danube was able to harass Russian forces as they occupied the towns on the Romanian side of the river, though once the Russians were able to bring up their guns, the Turkish fleet was forced to withdraw, as coordination between the flotilla and the army was non-existent, and the navy’s guns lacked the trajectory to counter the Russian guns. The Turks awaited a crossing at the Dobrudja, but even after a week this advance hadn’t come, and the Turks began to recognize that the main Russian crossing would take place somewhere else on the Danube. Another attempt to destroy the Russian railway bridge over the Siret with a Turkish flotilla was abandoned in the face of minimal resistance on the part of the Russians. The Turkish navy, the third largest in the world at the time and one which such high hopes had been placed, had so far demonstrated as little worth as the French navy had been in the Franco-Prussian War.

By July the Russians were moving multiple army corps into Romania, and the quiet situation around the Dobrudja had indicated to the Turkish high command that the main blow would not be toward the quadrilateral forts in the South of the Dobrudja, but would instead land somewhere else along the Danube River. Ignorant of where exactly this blow would come, Turkish commanders were instructed to dig in fight every attempted crossing “to the last man”. Despite the inadequate infrastructure within Romania as well as the various diseases that inflicted the Russians, they were able to deploy 150,000 men into Romania within 30 days of the beginning of the war. To foreign observers with the Russian army, this was an impressive feat though even in the first month thousands of Russians were struck by disease. While the Russians were deploying their forces, the Turks made virtually no attempts to disrupt the movement of the Russian army within Romania, with the exception of an abortive attack on the Russian bridge at Reni. For the journalists and attaches on both sides of the war, the successful Russian deployment and the inactivity of the Turks seemed to point to the direction of the war’s outcome.

The Russian river crossing took place near the small Bulgarian town of Svishtov, where the Turks had just 4000 men to oppose the crossing. The Russians had managed to land their first troops without alerting the Turks, subsequently gaining the cliffs overlooking the river and driving back Turkish skirmishers. Once it had become apparent that this was the main landing of the Russian forces, the Turkish commander Ahmed Namdy Paşa threw every man he had to oppose the Russians on the river bank, and the Turkish forces poured fire onto the Russians as they landed. The determination of the Russian troops enabled them to drive the Turkish forces back with great difficulty, though they themselves had been decimated by the crossing, suffering as many as 4,000 dead and wounded for just 1,200 Turkish casualties [2]. Nevertheless, considering the difficulty that an amphibious operation posed, the fact that the Russians had achieved their goals before Turkish reinforcements from Ruse were able to arrive seemed to improve the situation of the Russians considerably. Having crossed the Danube, the Russians were able to build a pontoon bridge, an action which saw little opposition from the Turkish riverine flotilla.

Although in the few weeks following the crossing the Russians enjoyed a number of successes, with both Skobelev and Gurko leading fast-moving columns to seize strategic towns and passes, the Russian advance was halted at the ancient town of Tarnovo. Entrenched in the hills north of the town, the Turks were shielded from Russian cannonades by their excellent trenches and their elevation, with the flat-trajectory Russian guns making little impact on the Turkish positions. Russian “offensive spirt” was no match for the superior range of the Turkish rifles, whose withering fire often made skirmishing a risky proposition and forced the Russian assaults in July and August to resort to human wave attacks that were all too easily mowed down by Turkish Nizams armed with some of the best rifles available at the time. Unable to emulate the Prussian tactics of 1870 where the French had been hammered out of their “Positions Magnifique” by flanking attacks and the liberal use of artillery batteries, the inferior artillery of the Russians and the relatively poor quality of junior officers and NCOs necessitated frontal attacks. Russian officers in particular suffered disproportionately as their need to lead from the front made them excellent targets for Turkish rifle fire.

After the second unsuccessful assault on the 5th of August 1877, the Russians had in total suffered as many as 20,000 casualties attempting to break the Ottoman defences near the town, as many as the Prussians had lost at the bloody Battle of Gravelotte. These were not numbers that the Russian army could simply shrug off, considering the long supply lines through Romania. Furthermore the Russian fixation on breaking the Turks at Tarnovo and progressing through the Balkan Mountains had done little to prevent the build-up of Turkish forces in the rest of the theatre, as Osman Nuri Paşa built up an army to take the offensive against the Russians in Bulgaria. Outnumbered and in a poor position, Russian Grand Duke Nicholas now began to argue that the Russians were best off pulling back to Romania and awaiting the reinforcements that would enable them to prosecute a campaign more successfully. Although bitterly opposed by Gurko and Skobelev, who remonstrated that it would be a crime to leave the Bulgarian population which had welcomed them to the apparently non-existent mercies of the Turks, the Grand Duke eventually had his way. In the course of the August of 1877, the Russians steadily pulled back their forces from Bulgaria, taking up defensive positions on the left bank of the Danube. The ill-prepared Russians had suffered as many as 38,000 battle casualties in their attempt to push through to the Balkan Mountains.

In Eastern Anatolia the Russians similarly had little success. Initially intended only as a diversionary campaign, setbacks in Europe put additional pressure on Russian commanders in the area to secure a victory to save face. More forces had been deployed to Eastern Anatolia, which weakened Russian forces in the main theatre of the war. The Russians attempted to besiege Kars in August, though were driven away and defeated by Ahmed Muhtar Paşa at the Battle of Kızıl Tepe. The extremely difficult nature of the terrain in Eastern Anatolia and the primitive infrastructure of the area, even when compared to Bulgaria, made major offensive moves such as those in the West a challenging proposition. Another Russian attempt on Kars was beaten off in September, but the onset of winter made any serious movement dangerous. The Russians would be unable to salvage pride by victories in the East, but Ahmed Muhtar Paşa secured the title of “Ghazi” for his defensive victories. In Bulgaria, September brought renewed Russian attempts to cross the Danube near Lom. Once again the power of defensive rifle and artillery fire was demonstrated as the Russians struggled to get to the right bank of the Danube. This time the Turks were far better prepared than they had been at Svishtov, and after three days the Russians were unable to establish a bridgehead on the far side of the Danube.

As far as the Turkish government was concerned, continued war would put a critical strain on the already ruined finances of the empire, and there was no guarantee that a better-prepared Russian offensive would not be able to break the defences on the Danube and the Balkan Mountains. Sultan Abdülhamid and his government had already begun the process of seeking intermediaries for peace in the September of 1877, but the Russians were still confident that a renewed offensive once reinforcements had arrived, possibly in the winter, would be able to break the Turkish armies. It was not until a Royal Navy Squadron passed through the Dardanelles Straits and appeared in the Sea of Marmara, bringing with it the spectre of intervention on the part of the British, that the Russian government became more amenable to the prospect of an armistice [3]. By the 18th of December 1877, both parties had assented to Otto Von Bismarck’s offer to hold a conference to work out an acceptable peace as well as an answer to the “Eastern Question”. With a temporary armistice signed, the guns fell quiet on the Danube as both sides licked their wounds and hoped to achieve at the negotiating table what had not been achieved on the battlefield.

Militarily speaking neither power had been vanquished. The Russians had suffered heavy casualties, and it was only the vast distances involved that prevented the quick reinforcement of the Russian army and a renewed offensive. The failed offensive into Bulgaria had certainly been an embarrassing setback, but not a critical one, and there were still plenty more Russian soldiers ready to fight. Indeed it was the threat of British intervention into the war more than a fear of Turkish capabilities which had persuaded the Russians to accept Bismarck’s offers of mediation. Although the leadership of Grand Duke Nicholas left much to be desired, a number of Russian officers had proven themselves to be intelligent and brave leaders, and both Skobelev and Gurko received heroes’ welcomes when both returned. Despite this both armies had had their backwardness painfully illustrated to the rest of the world. Their offensive capabilities were poor, the poor education of the privates and officers had made small-unit tactics all but impossible. A report of the German general staff noted that the only observations worth making were on the Russian Cavalry and the Turkish defences. However both the Russian and Turkish general staffs were to study the lessons of the war in more details. For the most part however, the key lesson that the war seemed to impart was that there were clear limits to the power of the offensive in an age dominated by firepower, a lesson that some armies would absorb more keenly than others.

As a number of observers of the war recognised, things could have easily turned out differently. Had the Russians invaded Bulgaria with the numbers Obruchev’s plan had originally called for, it is difficult to see how the Turks would have been able to resist such an onslaught, even fully mobilised. The ambition of the Russian plan was such that a successful Russian offensive may well have broken Turkish power in the Balkans permanently and may have even landed Istanbul in Russian hands, fulfilling a long-term Russian ambition. What may have happened afterward is hard to decipher. Perhaps the British would have intervened on the Turkish side, once again taking arms against the Russians to preserve the balance of power in the East. Or perhaps they would have seen the writing on the wall and moved to protect the Suez Canal as the Great Powers carved up the remains of the Ottoman Empire.

[1] – It’s worth noting that Ottoman artillery tended to be badly horsed too, and the training of the crews themselves wasn’t up to scratch, meaning that the Krupp guns weren’t the war winning tools they were in 1870.

[2] – Historically the crossing at Svishtov was an example of Ottoman incompetence. Ahmed Namdy Paşa drew no plans for a defence against an attempted crossing, and combined with excellent Russian leadership meant that the Russians lost less than a 1000 men crossing the Danube.

[3] – Tarnovo hasn’t quite had the Plevna effect on the rest of Europe, but the defensive efforts of the Turks have at least given the political manoeuvre room for Disraeli to take some action.

* * * * * *

Author's Notes - Rather than doing a blow by blow account of the war, I thought what was more effective was a overview that looked more into the reasons why the Ottomans actually had a shot of winning the war (certainly most contemporary accounts suggest they did) and addressing what was the critical Ottoman weakness of OTL's war, namely the lack of unity of command. Of course it goes without saying that the Russians also had an opportunity in OTL to have won the war a lot quicker than they did, and the initial brilliance of Gurko's strike into the Balkan Mountains in particular was impressive.
 
So next probably the peace treaty right? I don't think Russia will pay any reparation and formal independence for Romania and Serbia for face saving plus maybe a border fort or two.

Now the aftermath is most interesting one. On one hand the Ottoman still keep her most productive province (balkan), Battle Hardened Army and for a time put a hold on idea "sick man" thing but at the same time financial difficulty and with battle taken place in Ottoman land (ravaged countryside) plus restitive population will make thing harder. I like to see how the Ottoman will handle it this time.

For Russia I don't really know. But some grumble will be expected.
 
The original With the Crescent Above Us TL is one of my favourites TL on this site. I want to say I love it. You're doing great with the writings and details.

I have happened to have soundtrack which may complimented the universe of this TL Ottoman Empire.
 
The original is still one of my favourite timelines, and seeing how improved your second Persian timeline was compared to the first, I can't wait to see how this progresses.
"Kaizen" or the Japanese word for constant improvement is a word I try and live by in my timelines, but apparently not whatever the Japanese word is for actually finishing said timelines...
So next probably the peace treaty right? I don't think Russia will pay any reparation and formal independence for Romania and Serbia for face saving plus maybe a border fort or two.

Now the aftermath is most interesting one. On one hand the Ottoman still keep her most productive province (balkan), Battle Hardened Army and for a time put a hold on idea "sick man" thing but at the same time financial difficulty and with battle taken place in Ottoman land (ravaged countryside) plus restitive population will make thing harder. I like to see how the Ottoman will handle it this time.

For Russia I don't really know. But some grumble will be expected.
Some pretty good guesses actually. The Ottomans don't actually hold much in the way of Russian territory and there aren't a huge amount of prisoners so there isn't really any basis for reparations. However even avoiding the reparations of OTL is a win for the Ottoman Empire at this point.

Bulgaria at this point was certainly one of the more developed provinces of the Empire, but it's worth keeping in mind that economic growth had declined in the 1870s as transportation links improved, thereby exposing the Bulgarian economy (which tended to be somewhat more industrial than the rest of the Ottoman Empire, but we really are talking proto-industrial at best here) to cheaper imports from Western Europe. So while Bulgaria will probably continue to remain fairly well off, the existing pattern of development isn't necessarily a given. The fact that the Ottomans retain their army allows for the build-up of a military tradition, while boosting her prestige internationally.
The original With the Crescent Above Us TL is one of my favourites TL on this site. I want to say I love it. You're doing great with the writings and details.

I have happened to have soundtrack which may complimented the universe of this TL Ottoman Empire.
Thanks! I do hope that my writing has come along somewhat in the last 5 years or so.
 
Internal Affairs during the War of 1877
423px-Abdul_Hamid_2.jpg


Sultan Abdülhamid II

The Internal Situation of the Ottoman Empire during the War of 1877


Internally the Ottoman Empire had been so weak at the beginning of the war, the impression amongst some observers was that one last push from the Russians “would bring the crumbling edifice down”. This was not merely wishful thinking, as bankruptcy, rebellion and political infighting had characterised the mid-1870s in the empire, contributing to a sense of the empire’s weakness. Although it was the rebellions in Herzegovina and Bulgaria that would receive the most attention from European powers, the revolts in Anatolia which had included many Muslim participants, seemed to be more threatening for an Empire which relied almost entirely on its Muslim population for its military manpower. However far from providing the final blow to the Empire’s internal situation, the “War of ‘93” would become something of a rallying point for the Empire’s Muslim population as they rallied to its defence despite the reversals in the first part of the war, and enthusiastically celebrated its victories in the latter part [1]. The war would prove to be an anomalous example of a short war whose political dividends perhaps outweighed her costs, at least from an Ottoman perspective.

Patriotism and discipline as understood in the European sense were desperately lacking at the onset of war. Although the Bashibazouks were perhaps the most infamous sections of the Ottoman Army for their lack of discipline, this is not to say that the strict hierarchical order was present amongst the rest of the army. European observers spoke incredulously that “The Turkish private, when off duty, does not salute officers on the street… the social standing of the Turkish officer is below that of the French, German and Austrian”. The army lacked the kind of social prestige and respect that its contemporaries elsewhere in Europe had. The Muslim ethnic groups of the empire were perceived as apathetic and indeed, inferior racially to the Christians, who were presumed to be destined to take control of the European part of the empire sooner or later. One contemporary history argued “The Turks have not only been unsuccessful in the past, but as an inferior race they will be constitutionally unfit in future to raise the countries over which they rule to a level with the Aryan nations of Europe and America” [2]. For all the efforts of the Turkish state to reform itself during the prior decades, Europe still considered it to be vulnerable internationally and frail internally.

However when the Russians invaded Romania and crossed the Danube, the Ottoman state did not collapse in the way that many had anticipated. In an elaborate ceremony in which the standard of the prophet, amongst other holy relics, was taken out of storage in the Topkapi Palace, the Sultan Abdülhamid declared himself a Ghazi, or holy warrior for Islam, and the war against Russia a Jihad. Imams at Friday prayers whipped up a specifically Islamic fervour, preaching about the just cause of the Ottoman army which they framed as struggling for Islam itself, and imploring listeners to volunteer to fight. Some went as far as to suggest that defeat could mean the destruction of the Islamic world. With the stakes presented in such apocalyptic terms, it is no wonder that public enthusiasm for the war among the Muslim section of the Ottoman population grew throughout the war, though it did lead to a limited backlash against the Christian population within the Empire, which was increasingly associated with Russia. European consuls in Eastern Anatolia reported of some isolated killings of groups of Armenians, relatively insignificant in number but which troubled the Armenian community greatly.

Observers were taken somewhat by surprise at the zeal of the Muslim population, who seemed whipped up in a patriotic fury that had not been seen in previous wars. A correspondent for The Times reported “the fanatic Mohammedan spirit, seemingly long absent within the Turk, seems to have been awakened. Amongst the populace of Istanbul the Muslims seem particularly animated in their hatred of the Russians”. Stories of the unexpected Turkish resistance reached Western Europe, and the Sultan and his government managed to secure a war loan from Britain and France despite the default of 1875, a testament to the strategic importance afforded to the Ottoman Empire by the British in particular, who were still highly suspicious of Russian intentions. The revulsion of the British public following the Bulgarian Massacres was still too powerful a force to allow Disraeli to openly intervene on the part of the Ottomans, yet his association of a strong Ottoman Empire with the security of the Mediterranean and British India still led him toward aiding the Ottomans wherever possible.

The financial situation was also alleviated somewhat through the raising of private contributions from the empire’s civilian population to finance some of the war costs, as well as extraordinary taxes raised by Parliament, alongside a war loan raised in the money markets of London and Paris. Although accused of treachery by some, the largely Christian bankers of Galata in Istanbul also loaned money to the Ottoman government [3]. The appeals of the Sultan to Islamic sentiment in the empire as well as the Ulema generated a genuinely enthusiastic response, something that Abdülhamid would not soon forget. As the Russian forces were halted at Tarnovo, previous criticisms of both the Sultan and the cabinet became far more muted, as there seemed to be less to criticise regarding the conduct of the war. The mumblings in Parliament that the government was not prosecuting the war competently gradually ebbed away through the late summer months of 1877. The increasing popularity of the war amongst the Muslim population of the Empire raised the aura of the Sultan in particular, who was seen as a ruler willing to stand up to non-Islamic powers, although the Sultan had been against the idea of war originally.

Indeed within the cabinet the still-contentious debate surrounding the nature of the Constitution, as well as the direction of the empire as a whole was, for a time, subdued as both the conservatives and Young Ottomans focused first and foremost on the war effort. This had resulted in the formation of something resembling a unified front, as they had done during the deposition of Sultan Abdülaziz. Although this united front would collapse soon after the end of the war, it did prevent conflict within the Ottoman government as it fought for its existence as a power. Later advocates for consensus within Ottoman politics would appeal to the “Spirit of ‘93”, which carried connotations of politicians shelving their rivalries in order to work for the common good. Both Hüseyin Avni Paşa and Midhat Paşa, who served as Minister of War and Grand Vizier respectively during the war, won somewhat undeserved reputations as pragmatic compromisers for their cooperation.

What the Ottoman campaigns had failed to do was to awe the Christians of the empire into ending insurrections as had been hoped. Thousands of Bulgarian volunteers had joined the Russian army in its initial offensives, and the population had been keen to welcome the Russians as liberators in the wake of the Bulgarian Massacres. Similarly there were insurrections on the part of Greeks and Serbs, whose countries remained neutral during the war but whose governments still coveted great amounts of Ottoman territory. Greek partisans operated in Arta and Thessaly, while the Serbs in Bosnia rose up in the hope of forcing their governments to support Russia’s floundering offensive, something the twice-defeated Serbian government refused to do. While Ottoman retaliation was somewhat softer than it had been during the height of the Bulgarian Massacres, the Christian populations remained disdainful of Ottoman rule and remained so even as it was apparent that the Russians would not be able to overcome Ottoman resistance. Armed resistance died down for the most part once an armistice had been signed, but a great deal of resentment and a continued yearning for independence meant that the war had not resolved the situation which had caused it. The war would not solve the question posed by Nationalist Revolutionaries in the Balkans.

By the end of the war, the defensive victory had made the reputations both of the Sultan as well as several of his ministers and generals. The value of Islam as a tool to rally the empire’s population had been demonstrated, and the prestige of the army in particular had been greatly advanced by its victories in the war. It had proved itself capable of defending the empire’s borders against a major threat without much in the way foreign support, with the exception of the war loan negotiated with France and Britain, which was something that it had not properly accomplished since the 18th century. Rather than responding with apathy and inertia, much of the Muslim population of the empire responded with enthusiasm to the war, and with the conclusion of the war regarded what was in actual fact an indecisive stalemate as a great victory. Though the population had been encouraged by the relatively successful outcome of the war, the internal conflicts which had led to it were still largely unresolved.

[1] – The war took place in the year 1293 of the Islamic calendar, hence the name.

[2] – This passage is not an invention of myself. It’s worth keeping in mind that this was before the rise of Japan as a great power, and as such racist theories like this had seemingly little to discredit them.

[3] – It’s worthwhile noting that even after the 1875 default in OTL, the Ottomans were able to draw on the bankers of Galata for additional loans, though these often came at higher interest rates than those raised in London and Paris.

* * * * * *

Author's Notes - The internal situation of the Ottoman Empire in the war was definitely a mixed one, as Bulgarian and (to a lesser extent) Armenian Christians welcomed the Russian invaders, but contemporary accounts attest to a strong patriotism at least amongst the Muslim section of the population in the Empire. The war has produced a temporary sense of unity, though as the war ends and the external enemy recedes, the internal rivalries between various politicians as well as the Sultan's attempts to assert himself will likely lead to bickering at the very least.
 
Great update Midhat Pasha (undeserve) reputation as a compromiser remind me of certain historical politician.

I believe Muslim (Sunnis) population that supported the ottoman for now mostly from Balkan and Anatolia and probably other urban center like Aleppo hope it spread to others in middle east. The Christian one as expected will have poor view about the outcome. I wonder about the Jewish one? But Russia is not exactly the most friendly to Jew in this period anyway.

Waiting for more. Especially how the Ottoman will tread carefully between political faction, autonomous regional ruler, nationalism, and the interest of great power like Britain.
 
I wonder if tsar Alexander will survive this timeline? But the relatively unscathed situation of the Russian army might hold back reforms for a period that might make them more vulnerable in any future conflict. Also, I'm thinking that the chant for slavdom and orthodoxy might go down in Balkans since they might think of the Russians as a protector who's too coward (owing to the results of battle and casualties ). So from now on will the balkan nationalists pursue their goals independently ?

With an ottoman timeline without the plevne battle, I'm gonna have to find some other music than plevne marsi to listen to while reading your TL :relievedface:.
 
I wonder if tsar Alexander will survive this timeline? But the relatively unscathed situation of the Russian army might hold back reforms for a period that might make them more vulnerable in any future conflict. Also, I'm thinking that the chant for slavdom and orthodoxy might go down in Balkans since they might think of the Russians as a protector who's too coward (owing to the results of battle and casualties ). So from now on will the balkan nationalists pursue their goals independently ?

With an ottoman timeline without the plevne battle, I'm gonna have to find some other music than plevne marsi to listen to while reading your TL :relievedface:.
Didn't actually consider that, though this blunted war effort could make the army more susceptible to radical ideologies at the time, making them less loyal than otl.
Although I Balkan national ist would probably start buddying up to Austria Hungary for aid in future
 
Great update Midhat Pasha (undeserve) reputation as a compromiser remind me of certain historical politician.

I believe Muslim (Sunnis) population that supported the ottoman for now mostly from Balkan and Anatolia and probably other urban center like Aleppo hope it spread to others in middle east. The Christian one as expected will have poor view about the outcome. I wonder about the Jewish one? But Russia is not exactly the most friendly to Jew in this period anyway.

Waiting for more. Especially how the Ottoman will tread carefully between political faction, autonomous regional ruler, nationalism, and the interest of great power like Britain.
Broadly speaking even in most of the Arab provinces the Ottomans were certainly accepted as legitimate, if not quite enthusiastically supported due to the inherently localist outlook of many in the period. By this point in the 19th century there was a kind of patriotism emerging though. How Jews view the Empire is an interesting one, as while the position of Jews was certainly precarious in outlying parts of the Empire, it was better not only than their position in Russia, but also other Muslim countries such as Iran and Morocco. Whether this will be enough to win the loyalty of the Jewish population is another question entirely.
Certainly curious if this will make Alexander II double his efforts to reform the Russian Empire with this impasse.
I wonder if tsar Alexander will survive this timeline? But the relatively unscathed situation of the Russian army might hold back reforms for a period that might make them more vulnerable in any future conflict. Also, I'm thinking that the chant for slavdom and orthodoxy might go down in Balkans since they might think of the Russians as a protector who's too coward (owing to the results of battle and casualties ). So from now on will the balkan nationalists pursue their goals independently ?

With an ottoman timeline without the plevne battle, I'm gonna have to find some other music than plevne marsi to listen to while reading your TL :relievedface:.
Before he was killed in OTL apparently the Tsar was considering further reforms, but there were quite a number of assassination attempts on his life in OTL, and if anything a defeat isn't exactly likely to make groups like Narodnaya Volya stop. Alexander probably won't live much longer than he did in OTL, but what will happen in the Balkans is an interesting question. Perhaps Balkan Nationalists will attempt to appeal more to the West or even to different factions within the Ottoman Empire as opposed to appealing to the (for now) discredited Russians. Or they could turn to a campaign of terror that would result in unspeakable horrors.

Perhaps there's always the eerily similar Tırnovo Marşı in this timeline instead. ;)
Didn't actually consider that, though this blunted war effort could make the army more susceptible to radical ideologies at the time, making them less loyal than otl.
Although I Balkan national ist would probably start buddying up to Austria Hungary for aid in future
A Balkan Nationalist-Austrian alliance would certainly be an interesting one. After all, Serbia was strongly tied to Austria-Hungary until the Obrenovic Dynasty was kicked out, and Bulgarian Nationalists could well make the conclusion that being under the thumb of the Austrians is better than total subjugation by the Turks.
 
Vignette #2 - "Turning Turkish"
mosque-in-istanbul.jpg!Large.jpg


Turning Turkish


As far as first wars go, the War of ’77 was not a bad one to be in, as long as you were on the right side of course. There was the initial panic as the Russian advance columns stormed their way to the Balkan passes barely a few weeks after they’d crossed the Danube. Then there was the held breath as the Russians attempted to break our fellows positioned at Tarnovo, the relief when their assaults shattered. But the greatest of all emotions felt by both us officers as well as the rank and file was when Osman Paşa, latter referred to as “Ghazi” for his efforts, pulled our forces together and threw the Russians back across the Danube. At that moment, it didn’t matter that the Russians may still have had many more men than us, or that the Ottoman government was on the verge of bankruptcy once again. We had taken an army which, by all accounts was to roll over us, and stopped it in its tracks. Although I am not a Turk, I still felt a tremendous amount of pride in that moment, that little in my life has since matched.

Of course I had done well personally as well. I’d been involved in a number of actions which mostly through no special effort on my own part saw me promoted to the rank of Yüzbaşı, which translates into captain in English. Nevertheless I still embellished somewhat my stories to my mother back home, while emphasising of course that I was not yet missing any limbs. When I’d finally received a letter back it described how she wished she could see her “brave soldier boy”, and supposed that I looked rather fetching in a Turkish uniform. I must confess that by the end of the war, I had become rather partial to the tasselled fez myself, which made me look quite the oriental alongside my appearance.

I’d also met a number of interesting characters during the war, including Osman Paşa, and a Danish officer named Wilhelm Dinesen who had, like me, managed to persuade the Turks to take him into the Sultan’s service. He was a bit of an odd chap, who always seemed rather too eager to be thrown into dangerous combat situations. Were it not for the fact that he usually came out of these unscathed, I would have thought that he had some kind of death-wish. Despite this he was even more experienced than his thirty-two years of age would suggest. As the war came to a close I had discovered from him that he had not only been a veteran of the Franco-Prussian War, but had even been an officer in the Second Schleswig War of 1864 when he was eighteen years of age. Someone who had fought the Germans so many times and survived was a man who clearly knew his way around a battlefield [1]. Especially when battalions, brigades and divisions became disordered as we pursued the Russians, the instincts of a man like Dinesen were life-saving and I thank my good fortune that I knew him.

Of course with the end of the war, most of the Europeans who had joined the Turkish army would go on their separate ways. Most went back to their home countries, and those who went back to the United Kingdom in particular received a warm welcome, though apparently the British army made little effort to see what they had actually learned from a modern war. I too had considered making my way back to old England, but I hesitated. First it was a week, then a month. I had gone so far as to make my way to a booking office for the journey home before deciding “not today”. To this day I can’t quite account for the feeling which seemed to have me chained to Constantinople, but I suppose it was a strange synthesis of reason and emotion. After all, my limited family aside what was waiting for me back home? An army career had been closed off, and the thought of a clerical job produced a great misery within me. Whereas in Turkey, I was already a proven man.

Or so I thought at any rate. Nearly all of the foreigners in the Turkish army had been released from service at the end of the war, and none of the foreigners that I had met in my service seemed to be all too keen on staying. Dinesen had said something along the lines of “I’ll find another war somewhere to fight in”. Sometime in the summer of 1878 I made the decision to re-enlist in the Ottoman Army, when which I was informed that in the peacetime, any such effort from a foreign non-Muslim would be nigh-impossible unless they were from some kind of foreign military mission, or were Helmuth Von Moltke. There was nothing else for it of course, and it was thus that I began my journey into the Islamic religion.

When I had written to home to inform my family of this my mother, who in all fairness was never the regular Sunday churchgoing type, did not seem to be too concerned in her reply which still took me by surprise. Less surprising was that she had told me that my granpapa had begun to rant that the “mad Mohammedans” had taken his grandson. But to be perfectly candid, I couldn’t have cared less about what those self-righteous grouches thought. If this is what it would take to make a career in the army, then this is what I would do. The chap at the mosque near the room that I rented (who is an Imam, more of a prayer leader than a vicar) explained that before I were to become a Muslim, much in the way of study had to be done. Contrary to popular opinion amongst Europeans in which the fanatical Turk seeks the conversion of all infidels in his country with baited breath, the process to actually become a Muslim needs a level of official verification [2]. I began learning Arabic, which remains the primary religious language for all Muslims even outside of Arabic speaking countries, and as well as becoming able to recite the Islamic prayers, which of course are all in Arabic, began to gain a basic knowledge surrounding the theology of Islam.

Of course as any convert who has gone “full Turk” can attest to, the conversion to Islam is far from a painless process, in a very literal sense. As the Jews do, the Muslims conform to the covenant of Abraham and are circumcised. Amongst native Muslims this usually happens as a youth but adult converts are required to undergo the practice as well. I would prefer not to relive this painful memory, so suffice to say that I was in significant pain for a number of weeks. Around three months or so from the time that I made my decision to convert, I said the Shahada or “the testimony” as it is known in Arabic that confirmed my belief that there was no God except for Allah, and that Mohammed was his final messenger. There is much more to being a Mohammedan than this simple ceremony, but that would all come with time.

In the meanwhile my conversion had certainly expanded my horizons in many more ways than I could have anticipated. When it was heard in the higher ranks that there was a native Englishman who had “gone renegade”, which was more common in the past than it was by the late 19th century, there was certainly a great deal of interest, especially from Anglophile factions in the officer corps. Only a couple of years after I had re-enlisted with the Turkish army, I knew many more of the senior brass than a man of my standing would normally do, an in an environment which was characterised primarily by favouritism, this was a good omen for my future prospects.

[1] – Wilhelm Dinesen was the father of Karen Blixen, and an interesting character in his own right. He fought in the Russo-Turkish War of OTL, but ended up committing suicide at a relatively early age.

[2] – At least this is according to The Well Protected Domains by Selim Deringil. In normal circumstances (i.e. outside of intercommunal conflicts and massacres) at least in the core of the Empire there seems to have been a surprisingly rigorous process for conversions to Islam. Muslim minorities such as Alevis and some non-Muslims such as Yazidis were targeted in particular by the state authorities for conversion however.
 
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