With Sword or with Tankard in Hand

Here's hoping for the best.

And that Charles doesn't suffer too much from his father leaving a bad taste in the mouths of the Poles.

Thanks.

The Poles will be ambivalent towards Charles/Karol at first, but as his reign goes on, certain events will have them warm to him.:cool:

Also, to give people some idea of the domains of Louis and Charles II, here is a rather old fashioned map.

983px-Lands_under_Louis_the_Great_in_the_middle_of_the_14th_century.jpg


And the people who will of course be their southern rivals, the Ottomans. This map shows the Ottoman empire at the end of the Battle of Kosovo, in 1389, so a few years after Louis' death. In OTL, Hungary kinda descended into chaos following Louis death, but with Charles and a secure succession, it won't.

754px-3_-Murad_I_map.PNG


Charles and the Ottomans will be duking it out over who is going to have suzerainty over the Balkan principalities.
 
Last edited:

abc123

Banned
As for the fears about Louis' kingship, they were pretty justified. He was pretty neglectful of the Kingdom, and probably only spent around a year total in the Kingdom. He also had a number of rebellions against him for most of his reign. His regents were able to contain them, and when things really got out of hand, he intervened personally.

He also carved off a pretty big chunk out of the Kingdom and administered it seperately. He did consider himself a Hungarian first, and a Polish King second. So he is not that popular OTL in Poland.


IMO this POD could change Louis/Ludovik in my language/ behaviour. OTL, he had no male heir, so he maybe didn't care too much for Poland, because he thought that his line will not inherit Poland ( maybe he wasn't sure that Hedwiga could run the Kingdom ), so why bother much about Poland if they will become independent after his death anyway?

ITTL, with a male heir for BOTH kingdoms, he could pay much more attention to Poland than OTL...
 
Last edited:
IMO this POD could change Louis/Ludovik in my language/ behaviour. OTL, he had no male heir, so he maybe didn't care too much for Poland, because he thought that his line will not inherit Poland ( maybe he wasn't sure that Hedwiga could run the Kingdom ), so why bother much about Poland if they will become independent after his death anyway?

ITTL, with a male heir for BOTH kingdoms, he could pay much more attention to Poland than OTL...

The issue of names in this timeline is always going to be difficult.

I mean, I'm not actually using the Magyar name for Louis, which is Lajos.

I've been rather inconsistent with my choice of names. Louis is Lajos in Hungarian, Ludwik in Polish, and Ludovik in Croatian and Bosnian. Charles is Károly in Hungarian, Karol in Polish, and Karlo in Croatian and Bosnian.

So of course, I will probably opt for the English version of their name, Charles and Louis. Though, when dealing with the different areas of the empire, I just might opt for using their local name in the region.

I just haven't mentioned the Croatian version of their names because Croatia is an area I have less information than I would like on this period. I have some info on Bosnia due to a rather old History article, but not much on Croatia.

Also, I've been kinda inconsistent with which version of their names I go with:p

As for Louis' policy towards Poland, he might visit it more often to ensure his son's succession. But his policy will change towards it.

In OTL he tried pretty hard to make sure his daughters inherit. He gave the privileges of Kosice as I mentioned earlier which gave the Nobles a number of important rights in order to bribe them in accepting one of his daughters (in this TL, he is under no obligation to offer them the privileges, and he won't), and they did.

Just not the daughter he wanted.

In OTL, Louis wanted his daughter Mary to take both Poland and Hungary with her husband Sigismund. He even sent Mary and Sigismund to act as his regents in Poland right before his death, but unfortunately for Sigismund, Louis died soon after and Sigismund wasn't able to get a power base in Poland. The Poles subsequently kicked him and Mary out.

They then gave Elizabeth (Mary and Jadwiga's mother, not Louis' mother of the same name) an ultimatum: Hand over Jadwiga and we make her King, or none of your daughters inherit. She handed over Jadwiga, and the Poles subsequently kicked out her fiance Albert of Austria and looked for a husband of their own choosing instead. They chose Jogaila.

In this timeline, Louis might just spend more time in Poland, or his son might. Louis apparently died of something akin to Leprosy, so he might want to keep his son away from himself in his later years. Could send the boy over to be in Poland every once in a while to ensure he speaks Polish and that the Poles like the boy.
 

abc123

Banned
I agree.;)

And by all means, just use English version of regnal names, and for other names- domestic names.

If you need any help about Croatia/Bosnia, just ask.
 
I agree.;)

And by all means, just use English version of regnal names, and for other names- domestic names.

If you need any help about Croatia/Bosnia, just ask.

That's probably what I'm gonna go with.

And thanks for the offer. I've already asked advice from Seraphim about Poland, and I could definitely use your advice on Croatia/Bosnia in this period.
 
Originally posted by Von Sly
My guess would be either a centralised country with palatines ruling over Poland, Hungary, and "Yugoslavia" (a kind of orthodox protectorate), or a decentralised "confederation" of "smaller" baronies (like Transylvania, Little Poland, Lodomeria, Slavonia, Cumania). The first would be a powerful, but fragile country, since a disagree between Polish and Hungarian nobility could bring a disastrous civil war. The second would be less powerful, but much stable: should a revolt happen in a barony, for example Podlesia, then the King could summon other barons (Halich, Modavia, Cumaina, Mazovia) to put the rebels down, playing the baronies against each other..

I think Poles might have somewhat mixed feelings concerning the baronies system. While Polish nobles loved to be as independent as possible, the fragmentation of Poland in XIIth, XIIIth and early XIVth century was still fresh in their minds - divided Poland is weaker, also politically, and divided Polish barons might have weaker position on Louis' and/or Charles' court than lords speaking for whole Poland. OTOH there were some internal conflicts in Poland - Greater Poland nobles often had a different vision of Polish policy than nobles from Lesser Poland, like the case of Polish succession after Louis' death IOTL. However, both main parts of Poland had some common interests, like dealing with the Teutonic Order.
Oh, BTW, in Louis' times Masovia was NOT part of Poland
 
Originally posted by Von Sly


I think Poles might have somewhat mixed feelings concerning the baronies system. While Polish nobles loved to be as independent as possible, the fragmentation of Poland in XIIth, XIIIth and early XIVth century was still fresh in their minds - divided Poland is weaker, also politically, and divided Polish barons might have weaker position on Louis' and/or Charles' court than lords speaking for whole Poland. OTOH there were some internal conflicts in Poland - Greater Poland nobles often had a different vision of Polish policy than nobles from Lesser Poland, like the case of Polish succession after Louis' death IOTL. However, both main parts of Poland had some common interests, like dealing with the Teutonic Order.
Oh, BTW, in Louis' times Masovia was NOT part of Poland


According to my understanding Mazowia was a vassal of the Polish crown in those times. True, it only became integrated into Poland in the 1500-s. I guess weather to count it as a part of Poland depends on how independent it was from the Crown.
 
Originally posted by Von Sly
According to my understanding Mazowia was a vassal of the Polish crown in those times. True, it only became integrated into Poland in the 1500-s. I guess weather to count it as a part of Poland depends on how independent it was from the Crown.

The Duke of Masovia Siemowit III was Casimir III's vassal since 1351 (as duke of Czersk, Rawa and Liw) and 1355 (as duke of whole Masovia). However, with Casimir's death Siemowit III became fully independent ruler (as it had been eastablished between them earlier). Masovia was united until 1375, when Siemowit divided it between his sons, Janusz I and Siemowit IV. While Janusz became Polish vassal rather quickly and without any protests, Siemowit IV initially tried to reach for the Polish crown (with some chances for success) and eventually became Polish vassal in 1385.
 
Top