Wisdom Of The Olds - A Roman industrialization TL

[Mikestone8]

Might there be more chance (I put it no higher) if the Republic had survived? One obvious thing about 17/18C Europe was that economically the absolute monarchies (even the premier one, Louis XIV's France) consistently lagged behind rather than taking the lead. No reason for Rome to be any different.

Also is there any chance of Rome developing something like the Bank of England? That, iirc, had a big role in financing any number of things.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

#5: Aether

Might there be more chance (I put it no higher) if the Republic had survived? One obvious thing about 17/18C Europe was that economically the absolute monarchies (even the premier one, Louis XIV's France) consistently lagged behind rather than taking the lead. No reason for Rome to be any different.

By why did absolute monarchies did lag behind? It was not the fact of being absolutist itself, but the social structure (capitalism in Britain vs feudalism in France) that caused the technological stagnation.

And luckily, Rome may be based on slavery but is capitalist in large parts of economy.

Also is there any chance of Rome developing something like the Bank of England? That, iirc, had a big role in financing any number of things.

Luckily, the Roman state has an interest in financing some of the industries and will make possible the realization of projects too expensive for private contractors.

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Aether
35 - 22
​

35 BCE: Cassander, resigned and without hope of inventing anything positive, lives again in Rome and haunts the taverns of Rome, playing and fuddling. Luckily, old friends and some pleading letters of Agrippa help him to resume his studies.
Cassander’s main question is that of the why. Why do receptacle burst when filled with to much steam? He thinks of steam and air as different forms of the same universal Aether, which weights differently strong at different places and, if it is to heavy, make them crack up. But how can Aether be scaled to prevent an explosion, like goods are before put on a ship? The weight of a good is measured with weights put on the other balance tray – this doesn’t works with air. Though, Archimedes proved that water displacement is somehow related to the weight of an object – Cassander tries now to displace water in glass bottles by injecting compressed air and steam.

34 BCE: The next step of Cassander’s questioning consists of how much matter, in this case water, can be moved by air, in this case the normal atmosphere. A business-minded Syrian merchant recognizes the problem of Cassander’s experiments and sells him the base material of quicksilver. In the last stage of this experiment, he plunges a glass tube filled with quicksilver into a basin already full of the liquid.
Interestingly, the level of the Quicksilver inside of the tube stays the same no matter how deep he plunges it into the basin – however, this height varies from day to day and, interestingly enough, from altitude to altitude. He presents his construction as the possibility to measure the weight of air on a certain day at a certain point. And if you can measure the pressure of air, there is surely also the possibility to measure the pressure of steam inside of a boiler.
But Cassander’s first project is to find an explanation for the void in his glas tube – hadn’t Aristotle said that no kind of vacuum is possible in nature?

32 BCE: Cassander publishes the book Nea Pneumatica dealing with his ideas of barometric pressure and vacuum – traditional philosophers criticize the book fiercely, but Agrippa is simply overwhelmed. How much power can be derived from this force of nature?
The Pneumatic Automaton proved that steam and atmospheric pressure can actuate objects, but this force can’t yet serve the Empire effectively. However, this might be different with an improved design of the engine, and Agrippa decides to give Cassander the resources needed to perfect the construction. The Greek answers him that even the Romulus can’t buy instant scientific breakthrough since the quality of the bronze used for the engine and the consequent danger of explosions limit the possible pressure of steam and thus prevent any useful employment of the Automaton.
However, Cassander is convinced that this can change in the future, and Agrippa, even if he is some kind of disenchanted, agrees with his chief inventor. They decide to form an academy in which not only philosophers can learn and think of nature, but where they can share their ideas with inventors and contribute their part to the new machines.
The same year, the groundbreaking of the new Library of Rome in Tibur takes place and Cassander writes the first official invitations to the most famous philosopher he thinks to be able to become masters in the new Library of Rome – as the Library of Alexandria, this new academy should consist not only of a storage of books, but of a place for research and mechanics named Apollonium. In the following decades, a Minervaeum for the liberal arts, a Vulcanium for metallurgy and a Saturnium for agriculture are added.
This concept of connected thinking and doing makes the Library of Rome much more efficient than any other ancient academy, and the books are a welcome opportunity to show the world Rome’s wealth.

29 BCE: The inauguration of the Library is accompanied by the hemisphere experiment [1] demonstrating the existence of an atmosphere and the possibility of a vacuum. The demonstration is attended by the mediator Romulus, who finally follows Agrippa’s advice and admits Cassander in the senate and appoints him first head of the Library of Rome.

22 BCE: Cicero, the last of the republican leaders, dies of a natural death. Even if he increasingly criticized the autocratic excesses in the last years of his life and denounced the lack of political liberty (his memoirs will never be published by order of Romulus), his body is granted a state funeral at which Romulus speaks the funeral oration. At his side, Agrippa is presented as his heir.

[FONT=Liberation Serif, serif][1] This one [/FONT]

 

[Mikestone8]

Luckily, the Roman state has an interest in financing some of the industries and will make possible the realization of projects too expensive for private contractors.

Doesn't relying on the State pretty well guarantee failure?

The first time the army's pay falls into arrears (whether through civil war or another adventure in the east) the funding gets diverted to pay the soldiers - or else the emperor gets overthrown and his successor diverts it.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

#6: Turn of the eras

Doesn't relying on the State pretty well guarantee failure?

But at this point, the state is the only institution that has the money to and wants to invest in science. In some years, the private economy will play its role too.

The first time the army's pay falls into arrears (whether through civil war or another adventure in the east) the funding gets diverted to pay the soldiers - or else the emperor gets overthrown and his successor diverts it.

It's the other way arround. The modernization of the mines by the means of water mills and later on atmospheric and steam engines will help to pay the soldiers and to levy more legions - the emperor knows this and that's why he funds research.

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​

Turn of the eras
21 - 8​

21 BCE: With increased regularity, Cassander hears of inventors concealing their inventions out of fear they could be copied and sold by someone else.

In senate, he champions for a provision protecting cunning inventors against the theft of of their ideas; the law shall allure the inventors with profit and thus make possible technical innovations. Agrippa convinces Romulus of the benefit of the law and the Lex FurniaIunia de alteramentis[1] is voted in by the Comitia in the very same year. It is the first Roman patent law.

15 BCE: Marcus Vitruvius Pollio publishes his De Architecture. Cassander writes the chapter about the Pneumatic Automaton and some passages about mechanics, pneumatics and hydraulics. Additionally, Cassander composes a paragraph about the effect of atmospheric pressure and refutes the old theory of the Horror Vacui.

8 BCE: While the Roman general Nero Claudius Drusus [2] founds the first Roman settlements in the newly conquered Germania Magna, Cassander dies in Alexandria at 72 years of age. His son isn’t interested in science and prefers running for political offices.

[1] Named after the consuls of the year who proposed it according to Roman custom
[2] Known as Drusus

 

[Sciox]

And so we have a patent law. This is shaping up quite nicely.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Any other thoughts?

 

[Spartacus1224]

A patent law is going to encourage quite a bit of innovation. I'm also interested to see how the concept of patronage(imperial or otherwise) impacts technological development. Will future emperors or senators, or even just wealthy individuals sponsor and build further centers of learning? Also, how has anything changed in terms of territorial expansion(I noticed a mention of Germania)? And what's the state of Succession after Agrippa?

 

[ManintheField]

Was Roman metallurgy qualified for industrial tasks?
Roman metallurgy relied mainly on iron age techniques and thus wasn’t very elaborated – though, claiming that an ancient industrialization would inevitably founder on the lack of appropriate metallurgy is as shortsighted as saying that 15th century Europe couldn’t use gunpowder because of its rather primitive knowledge of how to treat iron to construct artillery. The opposite is true: once the principle and the value of a machine is recognized, progress in other areas (like metallurgy or theoretic physics) will be encouraged by the will to perfect the apparatus.

I just want to make clear that that isn't how things have worked historically. Metallurgy and materials science in general is something that spent the long millennia moving at more or less a steady pace, with any noticable speed-up being due to the discovery of specific technologies. It only really took off to any great degree in the 17th century, on a base of materials development fifteen hundred years in advance of anything the Romans had available.

They can't just magic up fifteen hundred years of advances in materials technology. There's no relationship here with theoretical physics -- physics had little to do with materials advancement until the late 19th century. Up until then, it was all slow, careful trial and error broken up by the occasional major invention (whether a tool or a technique).

You are somewhat right that the need for better materials can drive the development of better materials -- that is more or less how it happened IOTL. However, you cannot ignore more than a 1000 years of development in order to get from there to here.

Not to mention that one of the primary uses of coal prior to the widespread adoption of steam engines in the powering of industry (which happened after the First Industrial Revolution in Britain) was as coke in the making of iron. The Romans have no need whatsoever for the use of coke in this process: They have more wood with which to make charcoal than they could ever possibly use. No big need for coal -> no big need to pump water out of bell pits -> no real drive for a non-flowing water dependent pump.

And that's just the downstream issues of metals and machine production. There are also issues of consumer demand and industrial scale financing to work out. It's telling that relatively advanced financial systems have existed since time immemorial (including in ancient Rome -- although the governing class never did like finance much themselves), but it wasn't until the late 17th century in an increasingly economically sophisticated Britain that we finally see the invention of the bank note and the final arrival of a permanent, circulating paper currency that can expand and contract to meet the demands of the economy.

If you re-oriented the entire timeline of Roman history around getting them to industrialize, then made them get just right coin flips coming up to keep them safe over the course of centuries, you could have them industrialized perhaps sometime in the late 1st millennium. But not prior, and not without completely changing what it meant to be Roman.

I don't really want to rain on your parade here, so by all means keep it up, this is a well-written TL, but keep these kinds of things in mind.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

I don't really want to rain on your parade here, so by all means keep it up, this is a well-written TL, but keep these kinds of things in mind.

At the beginning, I have to thank you since I'm glad to see some (constructive) critizism at last, and be sure that I'm already adapting some imperfect sections of the scenario following already written elements.

I just want to make clear that that isn't how things have worked historically. Metallurgy and materials science in general is something that spent the long millennia moving at more or less a steady pace, with any noticable speed-up being due to the discovery of specific technologies. It only really took off to any great degree in the 17th century, on a base of materials development fifteen hundred years in advance of anything the Romans had available

They can't just magic up fifteen hundred years of advances in materials technology. There's no relationship here with theoretical physics -- physics had little to do with materials advancement until the late 19th century. Up until then, it was all slow, careful trial and error broken up by the occasional major invention (whether a tool or a technique).

You are somewhat right that the need for better materials can drive the development of better materials -- that is more or less how it happened IOTL. However, you cannot ignore more than a 1000 years of development in order to get from there to here.

I have to confess that I don't read enough metallurgy (law, physics and economy are simply to interesting), but I was wery very intrigued by ComradeHuyles's post - if steel is possible that early in Africa, why isn't it possible in Rome? It hasn't to be developed in 10 years - but I don't think hundred or two hundred years are that implausible.

Not to mention that one of the primary uses of coal prior to the widespread adoption of steam engines in the powering of industry (which happened after the First Industrial Revolution in Britain) was as coke in the making of iron. The Romans have no need whatsoever for the use of coke in this process: They have more wood with which to make charcoal than they could ever possibly use. No big need for coal -> no big need to pump water out of bell pits -> no real drive for a non-flowing water dependent pump.

And? Did I said that Rome will discover the steam engine before being able to make appropriate metals? Until now, they have only the Pneumatic Automaton, a precursor of the atmospheric engine, itself completly inefficient and wasteful - the Romans are not going to make the jump within 10 years, but I'm not thinking it will take 1000 years.

And that's just the downstream issues of metals and machine production. There are also issues of consumer demand and industrial scale financing to work out. It's telling that relatively advanced financial systems have existed since time immemorial (including in ancient Rome -- although the governing class never did like finance much themselves), but it wasn't until the late 17th century in an increasingly economically sophisticated Britain that we finally see the invention of the bank note and the final arrival of a permanent, circulating paper currency that can expand and contract to meet the demands of the economy.

I don't think that it is hard to teach the Romans the concept of paper currency - after all they knew promissory notes, and paper currency is only an advancment of these. What they need is a method duplicate paper currency (a printing press) - let's see how fast they can develop that.

But may I rise the question to whom the issue of paper money should be permitted? State would be most logical - but is this rational from a capitalist point of view?

If you re-oriented the entire timeline of Roman history around getting them to industrialize, then made them get just right coin flips coming up to keep them safe over the course of centuries, you could have them industrialized perhaps sometime in the late 1st millennium.

First millenium... This isn't what I wanted.

But not prior, and not without completely changing what it meant to be Roman.

Being Roman meant much more than being a bigoted conservative - it also meant to adopt innovations if a Roman thought they were going to help the Empire.

A patent law is going to encourage quite a bit of innovation. I'm also interested to see how the concept of patronage(imperial or otherwise) impacts technological development. Will future emperors or senators, or even just wealthy individuals sponsor and build further centers of learning?

They have a center of learning now, they don't need a second one. I'm thinking of letting fashion promoting technological development (which senator has the best automaton in his mansion?).

Also, how has anything changed in terms of territorial expansion(I noticed a mention of Germania)?

Germania will be as hard as OTL, but since the Varian disaster was more or less a lucky coincidence for the Germanic tribes, and not a fundamental weakness of the Roman military, I don't think history will repeat itself in this point. Without Arminius having Varus falling, by luck, into his trap (and this trap requires a fair amount of luck too), ultimate Roman domination in Germania Magna is only a matter of time.

And what's the state of Succession after Agrippa?

That's up to Agrippa who will decide it only after Romulus' death. His sons (Gaius and Lucius as OTL), Tiberius (as a relative of Romulus) and Drusus are still possible.

 

[Reader347]

I don't think that it is hard to teach the Romans the concept of paper currency - after all they knew promissory notes, and paper currency is only an advancment of these. What they need is a method duplicate paper currency (a printing press) - let's see how fast they can develop that.

For a printing press, Rome needs to make paper. Paper money was not trusted by ordinary people for a long time, because it had no value in itself.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

For a printing press, Rome needs to make paper. Paper money was not trusted by ordinary people for a long time, because it had no value in itself.

I think there is no problem with these two points.

 

[Faeelin]

Paper money was not trusted by ordinary people for a long time, because it had no value in itself.

Among the red hair barbarians, that's true.

 

[Reader347]

Among the red hair barbarians, that's true.

Tell me about the non-barbarians.

 

[altamiro]

The industrial revolution does require the right societal conditions, true, but it also requires an easily available, cheap energy source. Wood is not suitable (besides its inefficiency, destroying all forests around will lead Rome into a different kind of catastrophe) - British industrial revolution was powered by plentiful high quality hard coal very close to the surface. There is very little accessible coal around the Mediterranean basin, though, and shipping British coal to Italy is prohibitively expensive.
The alternative is water power, but again, Mediterranean basin is not well suitable for that. Most river flows are seasonal, a powerful stream in winter may be just a weak little brook in summer. A small, locally available dam (as usual in Northern Europe) will not retain sufficient amount of water to power a wheel for longer dry periods. The only alternative would be giant dams in major river valleys, retaining huge amounts of water so that the reservoir retains sufficient pressure into autumn.
But such things require a huge investment, they have an enormous economy of scale effect, and therefore force a concentration of control over water energy into a few select hands. You would see huge factories spring up directly below the big dams, where the waterwheels - probably rather turbines - power a lot of machines via belts and pulleys. These factories would belong to a few super-wealthy owners or to the state. The social consequences are actually not at all pretty...

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

#7: The age of the automata

The industrial revolution does require the right societal conditions, true, but it also requires an easily available, cheap energy source. Wood is not suitable (besides its inefficiency, destroying all forests around will lead Rome into a different kind of catastrophe) - British industrial revolution was powered by plentiful high quality hard coal very close to the surface. There is very little accessible coal around the Mediterranean basin, though, and shipping British coal to Italy is prohibitively expensive.

Ever heard of the Ruhr district? The Romans have coal just behind their border to Germania Magna. And France and Belgium have some coal deposits too. But coal will come only in the second step - first, develop water power and metallurgy, agriculture and science.

The alternative is water power, but again, Mediterranean basin is not well suitable for that. Most river flows are seasonal, a powerful stream in winter may be just a weak little brook in summer. A small, locally available dam (as usual in Northern Europe) will not retain sufficient amount of water to power a wheel for longer dry periods. The only alternative would be giant dams in major river valleys, retaining huge amounts of water so that the reservoir retains sufficient pressure into autumn.

Water power will do the trick for the first decades - and as to the source of water, I can only say that the Romans need no river for their water wheels. Their create their own ones - as they did it in OTL.

But such things require a huge investment, they have an enormous economy of scale effect, and therefore force a concentration of control over water energy into a few select hands. You would see huge factories spring up directly below the big dams, where the waterwheels - probably rather turbines - power a lot of machines via belts and pulleys. These factories would belong to a few super-wealthy owners or to the state. The social consequences are actually not at all pretty...

The social consequences - Pshaw! Everything comes at a price, and progress at a high one. But don't be worried about the workers, they will find a way to organize themselves and maybe the whole movement will be even more successful than in our world.

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The age of the automata
Last decades of the first century BCE
​

The new protection of intellectual property provokes the publication of many new designs of constructions and automata by the mechanics of the Library of Rome.

Though no progress is made in the construction of steam engines because of the lack of appropriate metallurgy, the philosophers and mechanics of the Library of Rome construct automata combining know-how from different fields of knowledge. Basic calculating machines[1] are built for merchants and used as accounting machines by the authorities.

Another field of use for the automata is the agriculture – the old vallus[2] known from Gallia and probably developed by the Gauls is improved by an ingenious inventor having seen the machine on the estate of a relative in Gaul – the same person, wanting to test is construction, lays out the first experimental field for systematic agricultural research.

The Pneumatic Automaton and the progress achieved in the Library of Rome generates a new fashion among the ruling class of Rome. The senators and equites seem to be mad on new automate and many are already of a world populated of androids replacing the slaves. This vogue is exploited by intelligent constructors designing e. g. cleaning robots programmed with the aid of strings and cogs[3]. Even if most of the devices are more or less useless, the mechanics are making money with them and are encouraged to imagine even more complicated devices.

Thus, the first improvement to the Pneumatic Automaton (of which Agrippa still dreams to see a better version in his lifetime) is made by chance on behalf of a Roman landowner. Wanting to impress the guests of one of his soirees serving food cooked with steam, he orders such a device from one companioned engineer. Though the digester[4] itself can easily be constructed, the customer requires an additional protection for his expensive cooking slaves.
Advantageously, using the new barometers and manometers working with quicksilver (a simple derivative of Cassander’s experiment), it had been calculated how much “Weight of aether”[5] a certain surface of bronze/iron withstands.
Now, it wasn’t difficult to add a safety valve working with a weight on a lever; if the pressure of the steam is high enough to raise the weight, the safety valve opens and releases steam. Though this invention improves the security of boilers, it also makes clear that known materials aren’t resistant enough to pile pressure and therefore making the Pneumatic Automaton economical.

[1] Like this ancient analog computer
[2] Here is a picture
[3] Similar to this robot
[4] The steam digester
[5] Pressure

 

[fdas]

Hmmm, how much will industrialization change rome. It seems to not have much benefit yet and it will take a long time before it is useful.

 

[Mikestone8]

Hmmm, how much will industrialization change rome. It seems to not have much benefit yet and it will take a long time before it is useful.

And what is "Rome" in this context? Which particular bits of it get industrialised?

Drawing Rome's 2C borders onto a modern globe of the world, most of the countries within it aren't all that industrialised even today - and as late as 1850 Britain and Belgium were about it. So unless for some unknown reason, large areas industrialise which OTL haven't done so in 2000 years, the IR is going to be very spotty - creating a situation where there are just a few industrial areas, which will be a tempting target for any pretender to the Purple. In that situation, how long before some emperor decides that the political dangers exceed the economic benefits - and closes the factories down?

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

And what is "Rome" in this context? Which particular bits of it get industrialised?

- Germania Magna
- Tres Galliae
- Britannia
- City of Rome, maybe Etruria too

Islands of industrialization will emerge around big (trade) cities like Alexandria ("hightech", glass-making), Antiochia (further processing of eastern imports), Carthage or Athens.

Drawing Rome's 2C borders onto a modern globe of the world, most of the countries within it aren't all that industrialised even today - and as late as 1850 Britain and Belgium were about it. So unless for some unknown reason, large areas industrialise which OTL haven't done so in 2000 years, the IR is going to be very spotty

Quite right. There will be provinces leading the proces... and other lagging behind. But you'll see (the US had the same problem for some decades).

- creating a situation where there are just a few industrial areas, which will be a tempting target for any pretender to the Purple. In that situation, how long before some emperor decides that the political dangers exceed the economic benefits - and closes the factories down?

Tempting why? A grain mill, 50 grain mills powered by water/later by steam may be profitable for their operator (that is the state represented by some administrative officer), but they have no use in a coup d'état - or do you want to wage the war using a pound of grain?

Later on, they will be industrial weapon production, but as it is tempting to support a civil war with them, it has no sense to close them down fearing some rebellion - they are much to valuable in a war against outer powers.

So it isn't wrong to fear that some usurper might use a weapon factory for is coup, but it doesn't make sense to abandon them once they are there.

 

[altamiro]

- Germania Magna
- Tres Galliae
- Britannia
- City of Rome, maybe Etruria too

Islands of industrialization will emerge around big (trade) cities like Alexandria ("hightech", glass-making), Antiochia (further processing of eastern imports), Carthage or Athens.



Quite right. There will be provinces leading the proces... and other lagging behind. But you'll see (the US had the same problem for some decades).



Tempting why? A grain mill, 50 grain mills powered by water/later by steam may be profitable for their operator (that is the state represented by some administrative officer), but they have no use in a coup d'état - or do you want to wage the war using a pound of grain?

Later on, they will be industrial weapon production, but as it is tempting to support a civil war with them, it has no sense to close them down fearing some rebellion - they are much to valuable in a war against outer powers.

So it isn't wrong to fear that some usurper might use a weapon factory for is coup, but it doesn't make sense to abandon them once they are there.

Grain is not a danger to an ruler, industrial workers are. The old (mid-1800s) Prussian doctrine of "keeping apart the army, the factory and the university" hasn't come out of the blue.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Grain is not a danger to an ruler, industrial workers are. The old (mid-1800s) Prussian doctrine of "keeping apart the army, the factory and the university" hasn't come out of the blue.

Yes, they are. But if you remember the first organized worker movements came only in the 1850's, 100 years after the whole industrial process started.