Wisdom Of The Olds - A Roman industrialization TL

[Tanc49]

I like the format so far, quick and concise.

For widespread adaptation, I always thought the 3rd century crisis could be a good time: as everybody is short on manpower and slaves become very expensive, tools like that would become cheaper by comparison, and more useful as men are needed elsewhere.

Looking forward to the rest!

 

[altwere]

Subscribed, I found this this morning, it was a lovely pre work read.

 

[RyuDrago]

Caesar's open assasination was butterflied away, and the assasins had to do it with poison. Now, there was no open republican movement in Rome, and Mark Antony could crack down on everyone he thought being involved in the plot (his enemies) without knowing who the murderers are. Through luck, some conspirators (Cassius, Brutus, Cicero) managed to escape - they were to powerful to be arrested directly.

Mark Antony simply pretended to be the leader of the caesarian faction, using his popularity with the legions habing known Caesar and him, but ignoring Octavius. Also, nobody can force him to turn Caesar's money over to Octavius.

As to the eastern legions, they know Octavius very well and trusted him then he claimed to be the legal heir of the dictator perpetuus.

In fact, nobody in this TL really knows who is now Caesar's successor and the question was solved by war.

Well the explanation was really clear.

But I don't think Cicero would have joined Cassius and Brutus in this plot to poison Caesar. Cicero could be various things but never an assassin, even if for saving the Republic. There was a reason after all if he was kept uninformed of the OTL assassination plot after all.

 

[euromellows]

Interesting timeline. Subscribed.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

But I don't think Cicero would have joined Cassius and Brutus in this plot to poison Caesar. Cicero could be various things but never an assassin, even if for saving the Republic. There was a reason after all if he was kept uninformed of the OTL assassination plot after all.

Yes, and no. You may remember that Cicero was convicted of murdering various Roman citizens during his consulate. But let's assume he didn't take part in the assasination plot as OTL. There is no reason why he wouldn't support the republican faction AFTER Caesar's death - he did it OTL and he did it in this TL.

@K-R Cicero was very pragmatic, and he dreamed and wrote of a person/a body of magistrates reading his constitutional propositions and turning then into laws. Now he found the person (Octavius) and can be member of the constitutional commitee. Isn't it wonderful for him?

@Tanc49 Sure. But the third century crisis has disatvantages that thr first century hasn't: plagues, decrease of population, endless civil wars... And if you compare the expenses for slaves (mainly food) and the exploitive wages of the 19th century, it's not that difficult to realize that slavery will support industrialization, like the low wages of the 1800's did.

@altwere Thanks. Hope you'll enjoy the rest.

How often do you think should I upload new chapters? Every day one?

 

[Mikestone8]

How long will it take to develop a Roman steam engine?
Since Rome is, in many aspects of scientific and technical advance, comparable to our 17th century, it isn’t hard to realize that the way from the first experiments with steam power lifting weights (like the construction Papin presented in Marburg in 1690) to a working steam locomotive (like the Rocket presented by Stephenson in 1829) will take an equal amount of time in ancient Rome.

What does "our" mean?

Would, say, 17C Spain ever have had an industrial revolution if it hadn't previously started in Britain? And, of course, the Ottoman Empire never industrialised despite having Europe right next door to set an example.

Which of these is Rome likely to follow.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

What does "our" mean?

Would, say, 17C Spain ever have had an industrial revolution if it hadn't previously started in Britain? And, of course, the Ottoman Empire never industrialised despite having Europe right next door to set an example.

Which of these is Rome likely to follow.

You're right. Rome OTL stagnated like Spain or the Ottomans. But history isn't predetermined - there are alternatives, opportunities one in power can use and change history.

Don't expect every capitalist in Rome will instantly adopt the still unperfect engine. But a process has started and it will be difficult to stop it - the process of seeing the world as something unfinished that needs to be improved.

 

[RyuDrago]

Yes, and no. You may remember that Cicero was convicted of murdering various Roman citizens during his consulate. But let's assume he didn't take part in the assasination plot as OTL. There is no reason why he wouldn't support the republican faction AFTER Caesar's death - he did it OTL and he did it in this TL.

Wait. Cicero forced the process of condemnation of Catilina's supporters denying their right of appeal to the people, true, but it was a denial enforced through Senatorial decision. Cicero violated in the spirit a law, but he overruled it through a legitimate decision of the Roman legislative branch. Cicero moved on the verge of legitimacy. And besides you can't put Catilina on the same level of Caesar...

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Wait. Cicero forced the process of condemnation of Catilina's supporters denying their right of appeal to the people, true, but it was a denial enforced through Senatorial decision. Cicero violated in the spirit a law, but he overruled it through a legitimate decision of the Roman legislative branch. Cicero moved on the verge of legitimacy. And besides you can't put Catilina on the same level of Caesar...

Just that the Roman legislative branch is the popular assembly, not the Senate. And during the consulate of Publicola the assembly ruled that no Roman citizen can be executed if he appeals to the people (was this law in power when a dictator had been appointed?)

Now, I'm not putting Caesar on Catilina's level - just saying Cicero could be pragmatic.

 

[Zireael]

This is really interesting, subbed!

 

[Salvador79]

Interesting scenario!

You're right. Rome OTL stagnated like Spain or the Ottomans. But history isn't predetermined - there are alternatives, opportunities one in power can use and change history.

Don't expect every capitalist in Rome will instantly adopt the still unperfect engine. But a process has started and it will be difficult to stop it - the process of seeing the world as something unfinished that needs to be improved.

Thing is, did Rome really have capitalists?
It sure had filthy rich people. They possessed means of production, with which others worked and produced surpluses, which this small elite appropriated.
But doesn`t capitalism imply the existence of some sort of financial market?
Otherwise, they`re just slave-owning, land-owning filthy-rich people - with nobody seeing the need for growth, dynamic development etc. They might even be people who lent money or other things to others. But that didn`t create a debt-profit-interest spiral either, it wasn`t primarily used to make money out of money, but rather to create client-patron relationships.

Showing off in ancient Rome seemed to work less via piling up money, and more via gaining loyal and dependent followers who rooted for you whatever plans you had in mind.

I´m not saying this might never produce a dynamic economic development (after all, Romans did invent or improve things and increased productivity in a few sectors, and accumulation certainly occurred), but you can either have a capitalism-driven industrialisation in Rome, which means you have to create this capitalism first, or you can have a differently, more traditionally Roman kind of development, which means it`s not relying on capitalists.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

#4: The new order of men and nature

The new order of men and nature
40 - 36
​

40 BCE: After two years of hard negotiations and long nights of working, the Triumvirs for the settling of the republic vacate their office and present their laws to a broader public – the core of their reforms is a professionalization of the republic’s offices along with the centralization of power around a Mediator civitatis, office created for Octavius, who becomes responsible of protecting the constitution and of supervising the administration – Additionally, at the suggestion of Cicero, Octavius receives the honorific title Romulus. While Cassius and Cicero push for a strong senate, the new function is a tribute to Octavius’ popularity as heir of Caesar, even if he is formally strictly controlled by the senate.
Meanwhile, in March, Cassander and his loyal slaves finish his first exemplar of his Pneumatic Automaton [1] using, apart from a pump, piston, cylinder and boiler, a beam [2] – finding no commissioner, he decided to build it on his own costs and see if a buyer would show up later. The completed engine was presented on the forum of the Etrurian city of Caere and attracted great masses of spectators wanting to see the olympic engine moving without human help. Though nobody is willing to pay for a machine and the exorbitant prizes of combustible, the machine works without major problems for some weeks and rumors that human power will soon become obsolete spread through Italy.

39 BCE: Agrippa, more than impressed by the Pneumatic Automaton, sends Cassander with unlimited financial means through Gallia and Hispania to equip the most important mines with modern dewatering systems. Using is knowledge acquired in Hispania, he builds better water wheels and pumps, but realizes that the running of the Automaton is too expensive for any of the operators. The increased efficiency of the pits is thought to produce enough money for the envisaged Parthian campaign.

36 BCE: Cassander, now 45 years old, finishes his work in the western provinces of the Empire. In Gallia, he discovers that coal is a much more effective source of energy for his engine and recommends to use it if available. In Massilia, following a demand of Agrippa, he takes a ship to Antiochia, were the eastern legions are preparing the final thrust against Armenia. Meeting his now-friend Vipsanius, he is knighted and receives the mission to improve the Roman siege engine – Cassander, even if he knows that he can’t master the newly discovered power, promptly accepts to build some steam powered weapons.
But, even if the first experiments with the self cocking ballista or the steam canon [3] are quite promising, the pressure is not sufficient to get projectiles thrown against the enemy’s walls and much less to destroy them. After three months of fruitless tests, Cassander, against his better judgment, decides to raise the pressure inside the engines, leading to multiple boiler and gun barrel explosions and, sadly, killing multiple soldiers and slaves. Horrified, the discouraged Cassander leaves Syria, even if the much less worried Agrippa begs him to stay.

[1] Nothing else than an atmospheric engine
[2] Like this engine
[3] Invented by Archimedes. Later on, Roman engineers will improve the canon by searching for actual explosives.

 

[Salvador79]

Yeah, something like this.. state-driven industrialisation. Sounds logical.

 

[Tanc49]

Was coal used at the time§

Stupid question, couldn't they use oil? They had quite a few of oil producing provinces didn't they? I think I remember they used it for lamps after all.

 

[Salvador79]

Tanc,
only oil readily available at the surface was used. It was used for caulking ships and the like.
In lamps, vegetable oil, e.g. olive oil, was burnt most of the time.

 

[Salvador79]

And, yes, coal was used in Britain already in the Bronze Age. The Romans used it on a fairly large scale e.g. for metallurgic purposes.

 

[Alcsentre Calanice]

Was coal used at the time§

Stupid question, couldn't they use oil? They had quite a few of oil producing provinces didn't they? I think I remember they used it for lamps after all.

Imagine Rome fighting Parthia over the Mesopotamian oil Don't think this is very realistic by the way.

 

[Tanc49]

Imagine Rome fighting Parthia over the Mesopotamian oil Don't think this is very realistic by the way.

The more you know

 

[Roland Traveler]

Rome industrializing? You have me intrigued... I've thought of trying to do such a timeline, but never got around to seeing if such a thing was viable. You, sir, have made it sound believable, though, and that's good enough for me.
A Subscription and the Title of Officium for this man at once!

 

[Orsino]

Intriguing so far, following this with interest.