In fact, inspired by your project, I'm working on a family tree of languages for ASOIAF.
WIP Map Thread
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I think the Andals and more importantly the Faith of the Seven could make a majority of Westerosis speak a "Common Tongue" family of languages that are generally considered nothing more then dialects of "High Common Tongue".
The second large family would be the Northern Old Tongue. It's a true language family, incredibly diverse due to the large and fractured nature of the realm with lots of unintelligible languages. The High North language is the form native to Winterfell and its environs, and spoken by much of the nobility, except in White Harbor where Low North is spoken by most of the nobility. The most isolated versions are the Crannog Tongue, the Barrow Tongue, and the Mountain Tongue. Wilding probably falls under a wider Proto-Old Tongue family, maybe even the most conservative form. This overarching family encompasses the southern remnants of the Old Tongue. The Valeish Old Tongue is probably the second largest family after the North.
Iron Islands may represent an isolate, ultimately descended from Proto-Old Tongue (Old Old Tongue?) but diverged significantly from all others. Same probably goes for Skagosi considering the strongly implied Ibbenese influence, and probably a smattering of other languages.
The second large family would be the Northern Old Tongue. It's a true language family, incredibly diverse due to the large and fractured nature of the realm with lots of unintelligible languages. The High North language is the form native to Winterfell and its environs, and spoken by much of the nobility, except in White Harbor where Low North is spoken by most of the nobility. The most isolated versions are the Crannog Tongue, the Barrow Tongue, and the Mountain Tongue. Wilding probably falls under a wider Proto-Old Tongue family, maybe even the most conservative form. This overarching family encompasses the southern remnants of the Old Tongue. The Valeish Old Tongue is probably the second largest family after the North.
Iron Islands may represent an isolate, ultimately descended from Proto-Old Tongue (Old Old Tongue?) but diverged significantly from all others. Same probably goes for Skagosi considering the strongly implied Ibbenese influence, and probably a smattering of other languages.
so what's going to be the equivalent of the Byzantine empire in this world?
I agree that there should be a Common Tongue used by the Faith in a similar matter to Latin in the Catholic Church, however I think that given the sheer size of Westeros that the various Andal languages should be fairly divergent from one another rather than just being dialects; that would be like the entirety of Europe basically speaking different dialects of the same language.
As for the Iron Islands, I'd actually not even give them any connection to Proto-Old Tongue and just have them be a complete isolate like the Basque language. The Ironborn have always been very mysterious pertaining to their origin, and IIRC they aren't even descended from the First Men.
You know, with all this discussion, maybe we should make a thread/collaborative project about improving the world of ASOIAF.
KapiTod
Banned
Ohhh, very nice.
I'd basically agree with this, but with a few minor changes.
For one most of the nobles in the South speak what I'd call West Valyrian, mostly due to the fact that Aegon's conquest led to a major influx from Essos. In this world the Crownlands, being so devastated prior to the Conquest anyway the Targs kinda just settled their Dragonstone troops there. The *Common Tongue* is basically just Bastard Valyrian, like what most Essossi traders seem to speak.
I'd say your spot on with the North, and with the Ironborn. HOWEVER I like the Ironborn so they've got lots more background lore- basically the western coast of the North still has large Ironman cultural and linguistic remnants, and Cape Kraken is essentially a bunch of Ironmen pretending to be Northmen. The west coast has a similar influence, but not to such a massive extent due to the Andals and the stronger Valyrian influence later on.
Probably still Volantis. The Free Cities (particularly Lys, Tryosh, and Myr) often played Westeros under the Targs against Volantis to maintain their independence, especially since both of them have pretty equal claims to being the "true" daughter of Valyria.
Well, I started making a language chart, but the image quickly got too big to upload. Here's the westernmost part of the chart. And I haven't even gotten to the Andal invasion yet! I think I'm going to switch to a different format.
I think the difference here is rather than the language purely being imposed by conquerors/settlers and later adopted as a liturgical tongue as was the case with Latin, the Common Tongue was simultaneously introduced as the language of conquerors over a fairly short period of time and was the main liturgical religion. I think that would translate to relatively less diversification as compared to OTL Latin. Also keep in mind the Maesters believe that the invasion happened far more recently then is generally assumed.
The Maesters tend to believe that the Ironborn are descended from the First Men, for reasons not elaborated upon. Possibly it's just convenience since the maesters eschew magical explanations, though I think there are strong religious grounds to support this argument. We know that the First Men worshipped their own gods before coming into contact with the Children of the Forest.
We have hints of what these gods were. The Sistermen of the Three Sisters were once an extremely isolated group of First Men who do not worship the Old Gods: rather, they worshiped the "Lady of the Waves", and the "Lord of the Sky" who they said were responsible for the creation of storms. They also would cast dwarfs into the sea as offerings to these gods.
We find clear parallels in some surviving Ironborn Myths. Most prominently is the 'Storm God', which is clearly a parallel of the Lord of the Sky except turned into a malevolent figure. While there is no clear parallel of the Lady of the Waves, we may find it in Nagga. Nagga was a sea serpent, and moreover a feminine sea serpent who, like the Storm God, was opposed to the Drowned God and the Grey King. In addition, the Sisterly tradition of dwarf sacrifice is a parallel of the ritual sacrifices and drownings the Ironborn are well known for. Further, the story of the Grey King felling the tree Ygg, a tree that eats people, seems to be a reference to the felling of a Weirwood as the First Men were known to hang the entrails of the condemned from such trees and chop them down prior to their adoption of the Old Gods.
I would argue that based on the above the Ironborn represent a creolization event with a pre-First Men culture by First Men. If we're going realistic, this would be a very old culutre - the "Merlings" or "Deep Ones" of myth - a culture of sailors/fishermen who existed all along the shores of Westeros prior to the arrival of the First Men. Possibly a subspecies, likely related to the Children. On most of the coasts they were wiped out, but they held out on the Iron Islands. They possessed superior amritime culture but were outnumbered, leading to conflict on the Iron Islands. The Grey King is a cultural memory of the beginning of synthesis between the two peoples; he fought Nagga and the Storm God (possibly old First Men gods) and rejected First Men symbols of justice in the entrailed weirwood. He married a Merling and adopted their god, showing the conjoining of the two peoples. Possibly his harvesting of fire is in fact a memory of his granting bronze to the Merlings.
With all this in mind, I reckon the Ironborn are a mix between an enigmatic Basque-type isolate and proto-Old Tongue that has diverged further in isolation.
I don't think it would be 'West Valyrian'; rather, I think that they would end up speaking the equivalent of English, namely a mix of Andal and Valyrian leaning heavily on the Andal. While you will note that the English nobility was largely speaking French a comparable number of centuries after William's conquest, Aegon was rather more accommodating of local culture; he allowed lords to maintain much of their regional autonomy and therefore their linguistic autonomy. More importantly, he adopted the Faith of the Seven and therefore likely its liturgical language. I would agree that there is Valyrian influence, and it is strongest in the Crownlands, but I think you overestimate it.
Sounds awesome! I'm adding that to my chart right now.
I was going to say the exact same thing! I agree completely.
I created a new thread for the project. We can continue the discussion over there if you like.
Have I posted any of this before?
It's my attempts to make a more "realistic" Westeros. Basically do some justice to this continent sized land mass rather than "What if Medieval England but big?"
The Reach- Medieval France, particularly under the Capets. Due to its massive population and adherence to very outdated inheritance laws the Reach is the most fractured realm in all of the Seven Kingdoms.
The Stormlands- Norman England. A very militaristic society with everything from the wars of the First Men, to the Andal Invasion, to wars with the Dornish and their conquests of the Riverlands are celebrated here. Skirmishes and drawn out feuds between the lords of the Stormlands and their neighbours are very common, so the Lords of Storms End tend to encourage enlistment in the Royal army or mercenary work overseas. Stormlords are common among the adventurous nobles who will venture north to the wall to participate in raids on the Wildlings (yeah, the Nights Watch isn't just criminals anymore)
The Westerlands- the Malian Empire. Who else has that much gold? A highly centralised realm established after the Andal invasion, with the literate Septons helping the Lannisters to dominate trade right under the Casterly's noses and then establish a system of provinces which superseded their vassals traditional feudal lands. Light red are still traditionally run lands, the darkest red is Lannister held and the middle shade are these provinces.
I've ideas for most of the rest of the realms, but shout out and if I like it I might include it!
Also yes the Iron Islanders are bigger because realism.
I had been working on a similar idea, and I kept scrapping it in favor of original works. Your interpretation is really interesting and you're going in some different ways than I had. Good luck I can't wait to see how it all comes out.
Also... WIP of the armpit of the Northeast
A map using the base I used earlier, I just have to label the battles and maybe do a write-up.
Sorry to double post
An update on the previous map, Now with a fancy border and a list of names of each battle. Any suggestions for names, advice, or anything else is greatly appreciated!
An update on the previous map, Now with a fancy border and a list of names of each battle. Any suggestions for names, advice, or anything else is greatly appreciated!
I'm working on a world in which Alexander died naturally at an older age. This put Macedonia in a much stronger position, prompting Rome to focus more on their Eastern border and the conquest of German tribes. In the end, more OTL ancient states exist until the modern time. Still playing with the borders, subject to change.
How about a revanchist Turkey claiming former territories of the Ottoman Empire?
Croatian, Bosnian, and Slovene independence movements would be the big ones. Otherwise, Montenegrin and Bessarabian movements could also clutter it up, and if you really want to go out there with it you could add Dalmatian, Gallician, Ruthenian, Wallachian, Spartan, etc. movements to it. Maybe throw the Free State in there depending on the time period.
Edit: Here's my attempt
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I'm doing a cover vaguely based off Tom Clancy's Debt of Honor, a 1994 book which details a fun but improbable scenario where a militarist cabal takes over Japan, led by a guy who has to repay a debt of honor (heh) from his family dying during WW2. The book itself is fairly unrealistic with some Yellow Peril overtones, so I have to do a lot of work to make the cover more plausible.
Set in 2050 with a POD in 1976, Japan sees a cabal of industrialists form a deep state and promote both a gradual military buildup as well as the fusion of megacorporations with the Japanese state itself.
Given that the book details a 1990s Retrofuture world of sorts, Russia is in dire straits and on the verge of collapse. A few skirmishes and Japan manages to snag both Karafuto (heh) and the Kuriles, and secure the glorious freedom of a Far East Siberian people (actually a puppet state being exploited for raw materials). In the final map, Russia will have been wholly balkanized.
China's economic rise proceeds much in the same manner as usual, but once it starts militarizing, Japan (with help from various other Asian countries) interdicts its maritime trade routes and quickly ends the matter in its favor. China is still around, but divided between various factions (each looking to bargain with Japan for favorable access to industrial inputs) and well within Japan's co-prosperity sphere.
Set in 2050 with a POD in 1976, Japan sees a cabal of industrialists form a deep state and promote both a gradual military buildup as well as the fusion of megacorporations with the Japanese state itself.
Given that the book details a 1990s Retrofuture world of sorts, Russia is in dire straits and on the verge of collapse. A few skirmishes and Japan manages to snag both Karafuto (heh) and the Kuriles, and secure the glorious freedom of a Far East Siberian people (actually a puppet state being exploited for raw materials). In the final map, Russia will have been wholly balkanized.
China's economic rise proceeds much in the same manner as usual, but once it starts militarizing, Japan (with help from various other Asian countries) interdicts its maritime trade routes and quickly ends the matter in its favor. China is still around, but divided between various factions (each looking to bargain with Japan for favorable access to industrial inputs) and well within Japan's co-prosperity sphere.
