Discussion in 'Alternate History Maps and Graphics' started by B-29_Bomber, Jun 1, 2017.
Sold off to the aliens to bribe some judges in the Galactic Musicfest, last I heard.
Currently working on a WIP future history. Using mattystero's basemap, great for future histories.
@writofcertiorari @Bennett Poland's about as questionable as the examples above, as the Poles are a specific Slavic people that didn't even exist as a distinct group until the 7th or 8th century, and definitely wouldn't exist at all if Germans settled that far east. Same with Mongolia, the Inca Empire (only formed in 1438), and arguably Japan (while it's been pretty culturally homogenous in our history it's regularly been divided into a Holy Roman Empire-like mess and was saved from invasion only by luck)
There's also the problem of India, a region as diverse as Europe if not more that only exists as a single country (and not even really that when you consider Pakistan and Bangladesh) thanks to centuries of British rule and exploitation. Making India one country needs a good justification, and I'm not really seeing one.
China has existed continuously for thousands of years, but I doubt that it would expand the way writ has it in their map. If you look at maps of the Chinese dynasties, you'll notice that they all have essentially the same size and shape, and it's only in the last few hundred years that it's expanded as much west and north as it has. This is because China's always been a hegemonic empire, leaving local rulers on their thrones in exchange for tribute and other favors while remaining content in their developed cities and farms rather than going off to try to settle new land.
Heh, maybe saying it was possible was wishful thinking. If it helps, when I was making the map, I originally wanted it to be a Byzantine Empire which "did all the right things" to survive, and managed to live on, conquering Italy and Spain. France, though, was a bridge too far even for a near perfect Byzantine expansion. That explains why Britain exists in the map- by the time Western Rome fell, Britain had an identity, and arguably was quite unified in some ways culturally, so they would exist in the Byzantine ATL.
I'll list a few points that I'd like to resolve before trying to remake the map. Let's assume I just try the Byzantine divergence, rather than Western Rome surviving.
1) I admit the China expansion is a bit haphazard as well, but perhaps increased competition from a strong, united Southern Europe led to a Chinese push to colonize some areas. The lack of Russia might have allowed for that type of movement into Siberia as well. I don't know what to do with Siberia if Russia's not in the picture.
2) As for the names of the names of the countries, I honestly don't know what everything would be called in TTL, so I just kept the OTL name. Maybe Patagonia should be "Mapuche Confederacy" or something. I don't know who America would be named after- maybe Augustus Caesar?
3) Would it make more sense if that country in Eastern Europe was perhaps Denmark instead of Poland? Scandinavia being ruled by Poland is a bit strange, anyway. However, if the divergence is much later, like in the 900s or so... maybe Poland could exist?
4) What if Germany had eventually been conquered by Rome, and then rebelled as an independent confederacy years down the road?
5) I'm not sure about Mongolia. The divergence there was supposed to be Novgorod defeating Muscovy, and then immediately getting annexed by "Poland". The Mongols would just settle wherever Russia was originally going to colonize, but wouldn't actually move into Siberia with it being so desolate. Then again... why would China directly annex it?
6) I was thinking that if Persia stood strong as an independent state, with Islam possibly being butterflied with the survival of Rome with an early enough divergence, perhaps the Turks would have tried to conquer India instead of attacking a strong Persian Empire which they couldn't hope to defeat in the field. Then, over time, that state opens up a bit, and becomes more of a representative state over time.
I'm going to try and redo the map a bit more realistically by next week. I'd appreciate any suggestions.
Rivers are done, and an ethnolinguistic map has been started! I am on the brink of death as we speak.
The "Big Flip" happened within recorded history, sometime soon after the Bronze Age Collapse. ITTL the Tower of Babel story has another bit about the LORD scattering mankind across the face of the earth after He catches them trying to work together again despite the language barrier.
I see my China map and Poland maps and Green Sahara and Surian and Texas and American maps! I'm flattered
China's mostly not too bad, but you should keep South and Southeast Asia independent (maybe excepting Vietnam); they've had a long history of established state structures and I doubt China would go for outright conquering them. Northern Asia is more forgivable, being comparatively undeveloped. Figuring out what to do with empty space on a map is a challenge, but
Research! Research everything! Seriously, with any sort of AH project (or really anything) it's essential you know as much as you can about the subject. For starters, especially because you're new to this site, I'd like to talk about http://www.worldhistorymaps.info*. This is likely to be a useful resource for you, but don't use the maps themselves; they're pretty bad all around. Instead, use them as a guide for what to research. Take a look at whatever divergence point you go with and continue from there.
As far as America goes, IOTL (in our timeline) it was named after Amerigo Vespucci, a cartographer and explorer who was the first to realize that the Americas were separate from Asia. But that's hardly the only way you could name them! A common alternate name is Hesperia or some variation thereof (named after the mythical Isles of the Hesperides). You also see Occidentalia, Atlantis, Brazeal (after the Irish myth), Vinland, or many others.
Denmark doesn't make any more sense than Poland, unfortunately; you're just exchanging a Slavic tribe for a Germanic one. Frankly, that area looks far too large to be one country, so you should probably split it up. Resist the temptation to make areas you're not sure what to do with into one big empire.
Scandinavia being ruled by Poland is "a bit strange," but this is Alternate History. The genre runs on Strange. Specifically having Poland is implausible, but there's nothing stopping you from having the Slavs push the Germans out of Scandinavia as they expand west. Keep in mind that around the 4th century there were massive migrations across Eurasia, which is how the Slavs and Germans ended up where they are now (and where they aren't now, like Suevia in northwest Iberia or the Vandals in North Africa).
Personally, I don't really have a problem with a Germanic state there. You even got the area roughly correct. You could break it into smaller states though.
Once again, Novgorod and Muscovy are butterflied (erased from history by earlier changes, named after the butterfly effect) pretty much no matter what. But I'd say the bigger problem is that you're not sure what to do with Siberia. That's perfectly understandable. But think about it. For starters, why does it need to be colonized anyway? Russia's conquest of Siberia basically started as a retaliation against Tatar raids, but if they had a less hostile relationship with Central Asia it's possible they would stay west of the Urals. On the other hand, if you do want it under some country it doesn't need to be anything familiar. If you want an expansionist China you could have them colonize Siberia instead. Any mixture of these would work better than a space-filling empire.
Now, a Turkish India isn't something I see a lot. I'm sold! But you should still probably make some states in the south independent, as historically North India (the Indus and/or Ganges rivers in particular) and South India have been at odds with one another.
I'm glad that you're as open to constructive criticism as you are, and I'm confident you'll be able to improve this map significantly (though, to be fair, I've seen and probably made worse).
*Apologies to Alex Richards
Interesting. I knew about Vespucci... but who is to say he even exists in this timeline? I guess I’ll research this further.
I finished the map, but I'll probably never make a write up, so...
It's official. He's going down the rabbit hole with this one.
I felt inspiration in spite of a need to finish my finals
oh dear, Germanworld?
More WiP... in which we discover that if the Arctic coast not lining up was bad, Terra Australis is a thousand times worse...
Separate but Equal: A Federation of These United States
Is the east suppose to look like that, or have you just not gotten to it yet?
It's still a WIP.
Borders are done. Gotta add additional islands and all that stuff.
A WIP of a worlda style map for the setting of Monarchy World.
Separate names with a comma.