Wings of the Free World: What If The Avro Arrow entered service?

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^ Nice. A solution to the Israel-Palestine problem that could actually work.

If I may make a suggestion, you may wish to have the 1967 war go ahead as IOTL and have Israel take most of the Sinai, and then give a pile of it to the Palestinians, hooking it to Gaza. I'm thinking the eastern side of Gulf of Aqaba right down to Sharm el-Sheikh, thus effectively giving the whole of the Eastern side of the Gulf of Aqaba to the Palestinians, with its Western border being a strip from west of Mount Sinai (Israel will want to keep this - mythologically its where Moses receiver the ten commandments) through the center of the Sinai Peninsula, turning northwest at Bir Hasanah to reach the sea at Bir al Abd. The overall result is that gives the Palestinians a solid third of the Sinai and a considerable swath of the Mediterranean coastline. Israel keeps the rest out to the Suez Canal. This has the effect of forcing Israel to go through the Palestinians to get to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, while giving the Palestinians both tons of land, several hundred miles of coastline and the chance to make something of themselves, though a Palestinian state in the West Bank would still be disconnected from it - though they could easily connect via Jordan and a short boat ride from Aqaba.

Economically, this gives the Palestinians a real shot at building a variety of industries, particularly fisheries and tourism, in this area. Israel will still have to go through Palestinian territory to get to its eastern areas, and their controlling the eastern side of the Suez Canal allows them the ability if so desired to force it open by simply blasting the Egyptians out of the way if they do not wish to go for that. Here, while the Palestinians would probably be mad at first, I can see them accepting that, especially since Palestine here will have considerable landmass and the ability to act as a trade point.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
^ Nice. A solution to the Israel-Palestine problem that could actually work.

If I may make a suggestion, you may wish to have the 1967 war go ahead as IOTL and have Israel take most of the Sinai, and then give a pile of it to the Palestinians, hooking it to Gaza. I'm thinking the eastern side of Gulf of Aqaba right down to Sharm el-Sheikh, thus effectively giving the whole of the Eastern side of the Gulf of Aqaba to the Palestinians, with its Western border being a strip from west of Mount Sinai (Israel will want to keep this - mythologically its where Moses receiver the ten commandments) through the center of the Sinai Peninsula, turning northwest at Bir Hasanah to reach the sea at Bir al Abd. The overall result is that gives the Palestinians a solid third of the Sinai and a considerable swath of the Mediterranean coastline. Israel keeps the rest out to the Suez Canal. This has the effect of forcing Israel to go through the Palestinians to get to Tel Aviv or Jerusalem, while giving the Palestinians both tons of land, several hundred miles of coastline and the chance to make something of themselves, though a Palestinian state in the West Bank would still be disconnected from it - though they could easily connect via Jordan and a short boat ride from Aqaba.
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You meant Egypt, right?

Anyway the plan is that this version of the Six Day War will see Syria and Iraq be forced to fill the hole left by Jordan redeploying troops conveniently out of the way or in the West Bank, where they will dig in and stay put during the War.
 
You meant Egypt, right?

Yes. (Whoops.)

Anyway the plan is that this version of the Six Day War will see Syria and Iraq be forced to fill the hole left by Jordan redeploying troops conveniently out of the way or in the West Bank, where they will dig in and stay put during the War.

Them digging in Jordan proper and getting out of the Israelis' way isn't gonna end well. Syria will be really mad about that and after the war is just as likely to push for the Arabs to "punish" the "complicit" Jordanians as Israel. Nasser will loudly and happily support this, as likely will Iraq. Israel may have to defend Jordan or even the Palestinians themselves. It might be easier for the Jordanians to fight a few actions with Israel and then decide they can't hold on to the West Bank and go back across the Jordan River, allowing Israel to focus its resources on Syria and Egypt. Both are soundly defeated as a result, and the PLO gets an offer from the Israelis - The West Bank and the Sinai territories are theirs if they want it, Jerusalem is an international city, peace treaty with Israel and both recognize the other as a complete sovereign nation, and both are allowed to use each others' water supply, power grid and transportation networks. King Hussein, not a real friend of either Salah Jadid or Nasser, pushes the PLO to take it, and its signed in 1968. The Palestinians get tons of help from Shah Pahlavi in Iran, who loudly seek to help get a solution to the problems of Israel and the Palestinians.

Both Israel and Palestine establish their Capitals in West Jerusalem (Israel) and East Jerusalem (Palestine) while the central city becomes the international city where both peoples can live and work freely. Nasser dies in 1970 and months after that Bashar al-Assad overthrows Jadid, and by the time of the 1973 war, both Egypt and Syria loudly say that they seek to restore Palestine's control over all of what was Israel, but despite that both Jordan and Palestine stay out. Both are soundly defeated by Israel, who take over the Golan Heights and both sides of the Suez Canal for fair as a consequence. Israel quickly establishes control there, and seeking to get Palestinian support for it offer the city of Ismailia to the Palestinians. They take over jurisdiction for it, but they make it clear that if Egypt and Israel come to terms, they will give it back. When Egypt does just that in 1977, The Egyptians get back everything up to the Canal, which becomes a major international border. Israel allows Egypt to control the canal and collect tolls on it. Ismailia returns from Palestine to Egypt as a result.

Just an idea, take if you will. This assumes that Palestine and Jordan are willing to work with Israel, of course, but I can see that as a possibility if there is a real Palestinian state.
 
very interesting idea. I generally prefer British Timelines more than anything, but this is an excellent timeline so please keep it up.

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Ming777

Monthly Donor
You know, very amusingly, that "Super Arrow" had more than a touch of similarities to the CF-190 Crossbow of that other big Canadawank TL. :D
 
Yes I noticed that. Main dif is size. This is on "Big Honkin' Plane", to paraphrase Gen Hillier.

Still, You have to admit she's a pretty sexy beast! I think that, had the program carried on, you might now have a squadron or 6 flying around in Superarrows.
 
I've never seen any versions of the Arrow with jump jet/short take-off abilities

Does someone more informed about the Canadian Forces than me know if it would have been possible to put the Arrow on a Carrier?
 
I doubt it would fit on the Canadian Clemenceau comfortably so I think the F-5 Tiger as the Commonwealth Light Naval Fighter was a shrewd move. Maybe in due course the Commonwealth becomes the exclusive builders of the F-20?

In any event the Commonwealth Clemenceaus would be up for replacement in the late 90s so perhaps the Super Sea Arrow might work. The design had a lot of potential in its original incarnation and I don't doubt there'd be an attempt at making derivative designs a la Super Hornet.
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
And after a long Haitus, its back:

1967- Part 1

The year of Canada's Centennial started off with a bang, as Ottawa, the Provincial Governments, and others announced a year full of celebrations and events, including the World Expo to be held in Montreal. Canada had become a significant voice in geopolitics, with many respecting Prime Minister Pearson as a bonna fide statesman, his background in Diplomacy being useful while working with the United Nations.

In the Far East, the United States and South Vietnam began operations against North Vietnam. For the next few years, there were infrequent rumours of covert attacks on North Vietnamese planes carrying VIPs. Quite a few planes with Generals and politicians disappeared in the night during trips to and from the front lines, never to return. Unconfirmed accounted suggested that black painted delta-winged aircraft were often seen near the last known positions of the missing aircraft, giving off a very loud roar as they sped away into the darkness.

The United States suffered a tragedy to their space program, when a launch pad test of the Apollo spacecraft resulted in fire breaking out in the crew compartment, killing three American Astronauts. Canadian engineers working with NASA soon discovered that mismanagement, shoddy design work, and other factors led to the fire. Many senior members of NASA became the recipients of pink slips, and recognizing Canadian expertise, the Royal Canadian Space Agency was given greater input into the program, with the Command Module implementing many Canadian innovations, as well as improved avionics and safety features to avoid another disaster.

Early in the year, there were plenty of indications that things were going downhill in the Middle-East, as Israel became the target for heated rhetoric from Arab leaders. Increasingly, Israeli suppliers of weapons continued to deliver goods to the beleaguered Jewish state, with Israel receiving weekly deliveries of PS.13 Iroquois Engines from Orenda. Israeli pilots were still undergoing training in Canada, and a few times they encountered Jordanians also training on the Arrow. Despite the official acrimony, the Jordanians and Israelis shared a rapport in Canada, and it was through these channels that Jordan continued to plan its way out of the approaching storm of war.

In March, the first prototype of the CF-5-1 Flechette took off from Cartierville Airport. The small aircraft proved to be a surprise for many, and a major cause of concern for Northrop. Each of its two PS.12 Nootka engines produced 4,600 lbf of dry thrust, and with afterburners, a whopping 6,900lbf, compared to the 3,500 lbf dry thrust and 5,000 lbf with afterburner thrust from the J85 used in the original F-5 Freedom Fighter. The engines also used a modified version of the engine intakes of the Avro Arrow, and with the refueling probe, the Flechette's range could now be extended significantly. It's fly-by-wire system made it far easier to control than the manual systems of the Northrop design and it now used an advanced Hughes fire control radar, which was far superior to the Emerson Electric AN/APQ-153 radar of the Freedom Fighter. Overall, the plane was considered vastly superior to its parent design. It also was considered a rebel against Western (primarily American) schools of thought about fighter development, with many noting its contrasts against the F-104 Starfighter that had been a proposed alternate to the Flechette. Replacing the Canadair Sabre, the Flechette followed the Sabre's design purpose as a dogfighter, trading in some speed (though faster than the F-5) for manoeuvrability. Like the F-5, it was armed with twin 20mm cannons, though some proposed replacing the cannons with a 20mm revolver cannon or even a small Gatling cannon for the second generation Flechette. By contrast, the Starfighter was an interceptor, and had the manoeuvrability of a hippo on tranquilizers. The F-104 relied exclusively on missiles, while the Flechette used missiles and the cannons. In early April, Germany, fed up with the Starfighter, announced that it was purchasing several squadrons of Flechettes, stationing them near the Iron Curtain. This meant that Germany would have an all Canadian-made force of Avro Arrows and Canadair Flechettes as its fighter force.

In April, the first Boeing 737-100 made its debut flight. Since the success of the Avro Arrow, Avro Canada saw plenty of offers for partnerships with American Manufacturers. Avro Canada politely rejected such offers. However, Avro Canada had established a subsidiary, Avro Canada Electronics (ACE), Inc, which was open to contracted work on avionics. They became the first major supplier of avionics to civilian and military aircraft, with its bread and butter being the revolutionary fly-by-wire technology first developed for the CF-105 Arrow. Boeing had contracted ACE, Inc. for significant cost and they had quickly built a modified version of the fly-by-wire system for the prototype Boeing 737. Thus, the Boeing 737 became the first production fly-by-wire airliner, controlled by a Canadian-developed system. The success would lead to Canadair and Avro Canada to develop their own civilian airliner, a restart for Canada's venture in building civilian jet aircraft after the cancellation of the Jetliner project.

By the end of the first third of the year, things began to turn ugly outside of Canada, which continued to celebrate its 100 years of Confederation.

On May 16, 1967, Nasser ordered the United Nations Emergency Force out of Egypt immediately. At this, the commander of the UNEF, Canadian Major-General William Alexander Milroy, quickly relayed the situation to his superiors, while the UN tried to discuss the situation. Secretary-General U Thant was persuaded by Pearson to stand firm, not immediately ordering a withdrawal, and let the UN Security Council deliberate on the plan of action. After much deliberation, the Security Council decided to reinvent the UNEF. They would claim that the UNEF mandate was shifting, with the troops being slowly withdrawn. Following the official announcement Israel, Palestinian, and Jordanian Officials began to increase the rhetoric against one another, staging arguments during talks over the West Bank. In reality, work was being done behind closed doors to fulfill their agreements. While the evacuation of UN force in the Sinai Penninsula occurred, the UN redirected the UNEF, and ordered the Force to "prevent" a conflict between Israel and Palestine.

To Nasser's confused anger, the UNEF was redeployed to the West Bank and Jerusalem, with additional reinforcements arriving in late May in the form of two battalions of Canadian troops and a squadron of Centurion tanks, all under the UN flag. Over the winter, Canada had successfully "persuaded" Israel to allow the UN to pass through Israel and deploy in the West Bank, and allow the additional Canadian peacekeepers through to reinforce the UNEF. Canada also deployed an additional battalion numbering 600 soldiers as well as twelve Centurion tanks and dozens of other vehicles; however, these were independent of the UNEF, and were thus deployed under the Canadian Maple Leaf. The Canadians and UN Peacekeepers in the West Bank officially kept their distance from Jordanian units stationed in the region, with Jordan only making light protests in public at the deployment. The UNEF had orders to force Israel and Jordanian troops to stand down if tensions flared, though the orders were deliberately vague as to the definition of "tensions." The Jordanians and Israelis forces in the West Bank had their own orders to willingly let the UN and Canadians intern their forces if "Tensions" happened, and allow them to hold their equipment for safekeeping.

In the early months of 1967, Jordan began to make some rather unusual moves, some of which infuriated Nasser. First, a deal was made with the Arab nations where volunteers of the Royal Jordanian Armed Forces were allowed to transfer to the armed forces of Egypt, Iraq, and Syria along with some of the older equipment of the military. To placate Nasser, King Hussein sold some of the RJAF Hawker Hunters to Egypt and allowed Syria and Egypt to temporarily control Jordan's air bases. Conspicuously, the first Jordanian pilots selected to fly the Avro Arrow, now scheduled for delivery in '69, were to remain in Canada for training with the Canadians, with a squadron of Hawker Hunters, comprising many of Jordan's most talented and loyal pilots, deployed to RAF Akritori for a year. Another flight of four Hawker Hunters were now stationed in the West Bank, ostensibly to defend against foreign aggression. Remaining Army units not under Syrian or Egyptian command were redeployed to bases away from Egypt or were being used to police the West Bank (with orders to surrender to the UNEF if necessary), with loyalist Officers and NCOs being sent to Canada and Britain for special training.

By June, things began to fall in place.
 
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Interesting. I wonder what this means to Israeli/Jordanian/Palestinian politics. Going to have to keep an eye on this. ;)
 
Is a Sea Flechette going to be used as Commonwealth's next gen Carrier fighter?

If so what happens to the Rolls Royce Spey engine?
Does the F-111 aardvark order go ahead?
Do the Canadians put Orenda engines in theirs?
If the major Commonwealth nations all have a swing wing heavy fighter
how does this affect the AFVG project?

IIRC the commonwealth ordered the CF 105 Arrow or variant there of as a carrier fighter.
Does this give a longer service life to the Audacious Class or does the RN order a modified
Clemancau design like the Canadians?
 
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Ming777

Monthly Donor
The Arrow was not adopted by the British Fleet Air Arm as a carrier aircraft. They are however used by the RAF as their main interceptor aircraft. Rolls Royce is working to improve the Spey as the RAF decided to use Orenda Iroquois for their Arrows.

As for strike aircraft for the RAF, they are still evaluating candidates.
 
Sorry I thought you said the Flechette was a derivative of the the American F-5. My mistake.
So is the Flechette a strike derivative of the Arrow?
 

Ming777

Monthly Donor
I was referring to your statement that the Arrow was ordered as a carrier fighter. The Flechettes are a leading contender for carrier fighters in the Fleet Air Arm.
 
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